Discussion
  • Read More
    Riley MacLeodRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 1:36pm

    Hi, since I’m seeing lots of talk about whether the headline/image are a spoiler, here’s my thinking on that: it’s only a spoiler if you look at Lev being trans as something that’s meant to be a surprise or some kind of dramatic reveal. Years upon years of trans storylines have taught us this (think: The Crying Game, Tootsie, basically everything covered in the Disclosure documentary), so I totally get why some folks are reacting that way. But that expectation perpetuates this idea that trans people are hiding some kind of secret that cis people are meant to take pleasure/disgust/surprise in discovering, and it’s an idea that’s filtered from media into the world at large that inspires real-world violence against trans people. You wouldn’t think saying a character is cis is a spoiler, because we don’t think of cis people’s genders that way, or tell those kinds of stories about them. As I write in the piece, the moment Abby finds out Lev is trans isn’t a big dramatic narrative moment, so this information only “spoils” you if you have the expectation that trans people should surprise you with our being trans. I don’t mean to sound harsh about it—I totally get where that expectation comes from, because we’re told it about trans people pretty much everywhere—but it felt important to me in this piece to push back against that.

    Reply
    • Read More
      shatmanreturnsRiley MacLeod
      7/02/20 4:26pm

      Sorry I haven’t met Lev yet in the game.  I preordered it and have avoided the spoilers.  It has been really interesting going through the game.  So far I think it’s really good.  I was very upset and disappointed when I went to Kotaku and saw the headline and picture.  I haven’t read the article or your response yet.  I’ll probably wait until I’m done the game.  I know two weeks seems like a lot because reviewers have had the game for a while, but I would imagine a lot of people are in my position, enjoying the game, but not having the ability to finish it right away.  I don’t understand why the headline couldn’t be something like, “I have mixed feelings about one of the characters in last of us 2" and then a group shot?

      Reply
    • Read More
      nintyninnyRiley MacLeod
      7/02/20 5:37pm

      Amen.

      Reply
  • Read More
    yovargasRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 11:48am

    “The game merely shows me that trans men exist, a fact I already knew.”

    I’m a gay dude. I’ve been watching a lot of movies about gay dudes recently and this is almost verbatim what I’ve been wanting - “man, I wish there were more movies where gay dudes just *exist*. Movies that aren’t about “gayness”, they’re about some stuff that happeens to some people and some of those people happen to like the same sex.” I have to imagine some trans folks very much want the same thing - how very nice to see someone be allowed to just exist, as a person first and foremost.

    Reply
    • Read More
      Riley MacLeodyovargas
      7/02/20 12:08pm

      Same!! I struggle with this desire because I worry it veers too close to me wanting someone’s gender or sexuality to “not matter,” which I don’t think I want. Like, I am trans all the time, and that affects my experience--a short film about me going to the grocery store would be a film about a trans person going to the store, but I’d rather it be about the store than my gender feels, you know what I mean?

      Reply
    • Read More
      yovargasRiley MacLeod
      7/02/20 12:15pm

      Grocery Store: The Movie

      Well said! 😁

      Reply
  • Read More
    Mint-Berry CrunchRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 11:26am

    I guess I’m an idiot cause I had no idea that character was supposed to be trans. I thought Lev was just a kid that was rebelling against the Seraphites.

    Reply
    • Read More
      SteamedcarpetMint-Berry Crunch
      7/02/20 11:37am

      The game really doesn’t draw much attention to it until the end of Abby’s chapter. Outside of the random scar saying Lev’s dead name and Abby asking if he wants to talk about it, it doesnt come up again until Abby and Yara talk about it.

      Reply
    • Read More
      Fighter of the NightmanMint-Berry Crunch
      7/02/20 11:45am

      To expand on what the other person mentioned, Yara talks to Abby about how Lev was supposed to be an elder man’s wife in the aquarium. 

      Reply
  • Read More
    CrispyLardonRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 12:30pm

    “like Yara and Lev’s mother, are the ones with the problem”

    Did I miss something? I thought Yara was supportive of him? What problem did she have?

    Reply
    • Read More
      HistoriaCrispyLardon
      7/02/20 1:07pm

      Yara supported his identity but not his agency, treating him like a helpless pup when he’s repeatedly made it clear he doesn’t want to abandon the Seraphite faith or the people he cares about. While Yara’s position is very understandable to the point where I wouldn’t compare her to their mother’s violent wickedness, Yara was still essentially disrespecting Lev’s choice by deciding FOR him what they were gonna do without even really working through it with him. She just decided, then told him what they were going to do, and Lev was like “uh no fuck that, if I resolve things with mom then maybe this doesn’t have to happen.” Which was a SMIDGE naive but that’s what Lev is, and if Yara had respected him more and worked through the process of why, if she had especially warned him of how LIKELY their mother would hurt him at the cult’s behest? Maybe Lev could have come around on the idea of leaving and a lot of tragedy wouldn’t have happened.

      Reply
    • Read More
      Riley MacLeodCrispyLardon
      7/02/20 1:12pm

      There’s a scene where she talks about how she struggled with him being trans at first, which is what I’m referencing here.

      Reply
  • Read More
    MegaBlastoiseRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 11:48am

    Just curious, did Lev actually change anything about his body, either through hormones or surgery or whatever, or did he just shave his head?

    The last game already made it clear that nobody at Naughty Dog has any medical knowledge, so I was curious if this was another case, as any hormonal drugs long since expired by this point in the game and surgery would be highly risky since there’s no fucking way there’s a sterile environment at the WLF.  

    Reply
    • Read More
      SteamedcarpetMegaBlastoise
      7/02/20 11:53am

      Just shaved his head.

      Also once you start thinking about the no medical knowledge/expired drugs thing in this game you have to start wondering why Ellie isnt puking after shoving a bunch of supplements into her mouth.

      Reply
    • Read More
      Riley MacLeodMegaBlastoise
      7/02/20 11:54am

      I don’t think they ever say, but I’d agree whatever medical supplies still exist in the game’s world are...probably dicey to put inside oneself, at best.

      Reply
  • Read More
    MyNameIsMyNameRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 11:41am

    They made Lev too young it’s a little hard to take the trans thing seriously when the character is not even a teenager. Like it’s a little silly to be trans when you might not have even hit puberty yet like Lev is much more a child than trans or anything else so it’s a little weird that the trans label seems to supersede the age. Remember being 12, there’s sooooooo many changes ahead even in the zombie apocalypse that I kind of rolled my eyes at how seriously they tried to make her whole thing if Lev was 20 or even 16 I’d actually buy in but not gonna take a 12 years old’s identity seriously gender or otherwise because they’re 12.

    Reply
    • Read More
      Fighter of the NightmanMyNameIsMyName
      7/02/20 11:47am

      How do you know he hasn’t hit puberty yet? I’m assuming since he was supposed to be married off when he was Lily he was old enough to be going through it already. 

      Reply
    • Read More
      witchestMyNameIsMyName
      7/02/20 11:57am

      That’s like saying you can’t call a 10 year old boy a boy because he hasn’t hit puberty. Trans kids know who they are.

      Reply
  • Read More
    TraolinRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 1:43pm

    I’m from a small rural town in the the american south. I’m not opposed to being exposed to new ideas or realities in the media I consume but my background has limited my exposure to a great many things. The brief exchange detailed in the article in which Lev declines further conversation with Abby opened my eyes to the concept of dead naming and that in turn motivated me to learn more about the struggles of people like Lev in the real world in a way that I had not before. I’m trying to do more listening and less talking lately and am hesitant to even comment, but i decided to post in the hope some would find comfort in the fact that characters like Lev are driving people, at least this one, to educate themselves a little more and try and be more understanding.

    Reply
    • Read More
      camcorpsTraolin
      7/02/20 3:00pm

      This is very stunning and brave.

      Reply
  • Read More
    AlwaysWrongRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 11:47am

    What a great read.

    I know that the general discourse around TLOU2 has been rough, but good faith critiques like these and other queer and minority voices have been really valuable to me—it’s given me so many more viewpoints to reflect upon, more experiences outside of my own to critically view games and media like this through. That the responses have not been monolithic from the LGBT+ community is something I hope big studios like ND come to embrace rather than get defensive about. What you write about Lev being one transmasculine character in one big AAA game seems a key point—as more games include specifically written trans characters (not just create a character options) from the wide variety of experiences and voices in the trans community, Lev’s story can be seen in a different relief, and the discussions don’t have to focus purely on just TLOU2. I’m really looking forward to that happening, for purely selfish reasons—I enjoy those stories so much more than just another reiteration of The Majority’s Avatar’s Hero’s Journey, and I want to keep learning about how those different than me experience this world. If any medium is set to do that, and let me press left stick forward to walk in someone else’s shoes, it’s video games.

    Reply
    • Read More
      PraxinoscopeAlwaysWrong
      7/02/20 12:06pm

      It is always refreshing when thoughtful and articulate gamers chime in (which is far too rare.) Thanks.

      Reply
    • Read More
      AlwaysWrongPraxinoscope
      7/02/20 12:29pm

      I’m glad you think so! Thank you!

      Reply
  • Read More
    cityzunRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 4:00pm

    This is going to come out not as well written, and I hope my point comes across without offending, so here goes:
    I feel like trans people are, right now, at the point of media representation where I was a couple decades ago as a Mexican-American. You see people on-screen who share a commonality with you, but they’re often a caricature or stereotype. I can’t tell you how frustrating it was to always see the brown-skinned guy in something be a gangbanger, drug dealer, ex-con, etc. It’s gotten way better, but even now I see those tropes constantly. I’m hopeful for the trans community, and the calls to add nuance to characters like Lev are what are needed to both increase representation and let creators know what does and doesn’t work. Marginalized communities will always to have to fight for their spot at the table, and it can be frustrating and disheartening at times, but dialogue and discussion are the best ways to get to where the lazy stereotypes are the outlier, and the characters are seen not for their “differences” but for the character itself.

    Reply
  • Read More
    DootdootbeepRiley MacLeod
    7/02/20 11:30am

    Honestly, I didn’t give a second thought to the fact Lev’s is transgender, I just accepted that he wanted to be referred to as a he, empathized he wanted to escape religious oppression, then murdered his oppressors en mass.

    Is that the goal? I’m conflicted because it reminds me of the “I don’t see color” nonsense, which ignores a marginalized group’s pain but it’s also sort of the goal, right? Every person should just be accepted as-is for who they are without prejudice.

    Reply
    • Read More
      Fighter of the NightmanDootdootbeep
      7/02/20 11:49am

      You’re missing out on a pretty big subplot, he wanted to rescue his mother from that place too. 

      Reply
    • Read More
      TomacxzDootdootbeep
      7/02/20 1:50pm

      He doesn’t “murder en masse.” He’s defending himself from people trying to murder him. If they accepted him he’d have no reason to kill them. He's not seeking revenge.

      The seraphites themselves have become misguided since the death of their leader. Lev believes their leader would have been appalled by their treatment of him.

      Reply