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    NoGasJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 1:23pm

    I don’t dislike the new Star Wars movies for having a social justice agenda. I think that’s great. I dislike the new Star Wars because they decided to go full-on Guardians of the Galaxy humor without the ability to be humorous. The whole “Finn’s in a leaking bag! HA!” just felt really out of place with the emotional depth they were trying to go for with ‘Where’s Rey!?’ and the new girl’s ‘Hur hur, I tase people who are trying to escape from a situation in which we all find ourselves in existential crisis, but let’s turn it into a joke’ stuff just wasn’t good.

    Nor was the painfully forced kiss scene.

    Nor was the Death of Snoke. The absolute biggest buzzkill I have ever seen in an action/fantasy movie that took itself seriously. Even if it did give us a really cool fight with the Praetorian Guards (very well executed) it was such a sloppy way of handling an entire character buildup.

    Are there issues with the toxicity of the fandom right now? Hell-to-the-yes. The fact that a young woman received death threats for doing her damn job in a movie as an actor is criminal. Literally and figuratively.

    But there is so much handwaving done when people try to critique the new film for it’s very legitimate flaws and poor narrative choices, and so many bait-and-switches done between the two directors.

    The movie can’t seem to be discussed for the flaws without it devolving into an argument about identity politics and what it means to have representation in film. I just have an issue with how the io9 writers keep on saying ‘if you didn’t like Star Wars, you hate social justice, not that you had issues with the movie on its own.’

    I now await the deluge of people telling me I just ‘Didn’t get it’ or am ‘against women having strong voices’ or ‘Rian Johnson is a misunderstood genius because he made one good movie, and totally isn’t the next Blomkamp’

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      DoyDoyDoyDoyNoGas
      9/06/18 1:27pm

      It’s not that you didn’t get it, it’s that you are talking about something that the paper and this article doesn’t attempt to cover.

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      NoGasDoyDoyDoyDoy
      9/06/18 1:32pm

      I understand that. But io9 has had, from the beginning, this strong rhetoric that if you don’t like Star Wars, you’re a bigot. That’s what I’m against.

      Like I said in the comment, it’s important to discuss the general sexism and misogyny that exists pervasively in popular culture. But there are so many write-offs for the new Star Wars film as failing (in the sense that it’s not immediately beatified into our cultural pantheon like Star Wars repetitiously does) because of an over-adherence to social justice issues while ignoring the fact that they just made a bad movie.

      The discussion keeps happening because Star Wars is so ingrained in our cultural Zeitgeist, and received special attention like this because so much of our popular culture revolves around, or alludes to, Star Wars. Somehow it’s the film they point to when they want to discuss the importance of identity politics in culture, but there are so many better examples of arguing over whether or not The Last Jedi was a bad movie because it’s just a bad movie or because people are angry over women being empowered.

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    HDartistJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 2:17pm

    What makes this issue very difficult to quantify is that a lot of this toxic hatred is wearing a mask of “honest criticism.”

    I am a member of a number of fan and hobbyist forums, and I’ve noticed that a lot of the complaints carry very strong undertones of this toxicity, but with very carefully constructed wording. This allows them to back off and feign offense when confronted, and then come back a few posts later, doubling down on the hatred.

    But a keyword search of these threads wouldn’t really produce much useful data.

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      themanbehindthecurtainHDartist
      9/06/18 3:39pm

      “When confronted” why confront them? Maybe you really are reading too much into many peoples criticisms of the film and taring people with a brush because it is easier to pigeon hole everyone with a negative opinion on a movie that obviously many people hold dear and are only adding to the hostile environment around the film. It’s Ghostbusters mark II.

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      ToothHDartist
      9/06/18 4:00pm

      That sounds a lot like youre trying to associate critiscism with toxicity, which is sort of naive at best and outright underhanded and toxic at worst.

      TlJ was poorly written and directed overall, with Rose and Finns arc being a particularly glaring example. Their acting chops and charisma just couldnt save what was essentially the culmination of everything bad about Disney. Its okay to think that the Michael Bay/Zack Snyder aproach to film making is not a good fit for Star Wars, and not liking a film does not mean a person is in league with the minority of fandom that is racist or sexist

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    IshamaelJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 1:01pm

    Interesting read thanks for bringing it up as its a growing topic of importance. The prevalence of toxic behavior of fandom in general is becoming quite disgusting. To the point I don’t even like being associated with fandom of any kind as the toxic elements loom so large - the fact the WaPo is writing on it just proves this point.

    Further, “But not only does that minority still exist—and should be fought against even if it is in small numbers” this is exactly right. Letting stuff like this fester only creates bad results down the line as the communities grow and congeal into a toxic mass of mutually reinforced hate. Which is becoming actively worrying as politics and culture is so blended together these people have a way of finding there way to other pastimes. Like how Gamegate became a key part of the early alt-right coalition a few years back.

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      Spaceman_99Ishamael
      9/06/18 1:14pm

      I fully agree with you. Especially how GG was the testing grounds for a significant portion of the alt-right online tactics (with a lot of the MRA and aligned groups before even that testing ways to make inroads into these groups).

      But I do disagree with one point:

      The prevelence of toxic behavior of fandom in general is becoming quite disgusting.

      I think it has always been toxic like this. I bet if we had significant statistical surveys of fandom in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's, you would see roughly equivalent numbers as today. It is just as technology has progressed, it allows these hate communities to speak to and bolster each other. They have gone from the relatively isolated meeting hall communities, to conventions, to BBS boards, AIM, IRC, Forums, Digg, Reddit, etc.

      Social media and massive aggregators allows far more of the public to see them in their true light.

      As people age out of their hatred into maturity, newer and younger groups replace them. 

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      Poe DeSpellIshamael
      9/06/18 1:18pm

      The toxicity of fandoms is why I don’t like being a fan of Star Trek, Star Wars or Doctor Who, because a lot of whiny, whinging neckbeards are scattered everywhere. I love the shows and movies and comics of these things, but it’s best not to interact with the fandom too much.

      I’m glad I still have the Ducktales fandom, which isn’t toxic (yet.) The whinging crybabies weeded themselves out.

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    FauxcusedJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 1:15pm

    How much time and energy does the US—and the world for that matter but I can only comment locally—waste due to worrying about what color skin someone else has. Or what sort of genital they are interested in. Or whatever other invented reason to hate.

    So much time wasted. So stupid.

    And yeah, we have to promote diversity.  I am not saying we should not.  But it is stupid that it is 2018 and we are STILL having to promote it instead of diversity just being accepted as normal and proper. 

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      ajdragoonFauxcused
      9/06/18 1:36pm

      > But it is stupid that it is 2018 and we are STILL having to promote it instead of diversity just being accepted as normal and proper.

      The problem is those people who don’t want to accept it as normal and proper. 

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      Fauxcusedajdragoon
      9/06/18 1:39pm

      I know. And I know that 50 years from now I’ll still be frustrated. I just hope we inch forward a little in that time.

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    Jack ConnerJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 1:13pm

    What’s toxic is fans calling other fans toxic. Calling bad movies and bad characters on their bullshit is not toxicity but legitimate criticism.

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      Spaceman_99Jack Conner
      9/06/18 1:18pm

      1. Read the article. You clearly did not before posting.

      2. There is a masssssssssive gap between criticism of a film and attacking its actors/creators. I think even someone who skips the article to throw their two cents into a comment can see that.

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      Skyfire77Jack Conner
      9/06/18 1:27pm

      Movies that don’t hew to your headcanon aren’t “bad”, and neither are new characters or those that aren’t exactly like you think you remember them from ‘81.

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    Ja'mie Lannister, Private School KingslayerJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 1:26pm

    In my opinion, we need to take off the blinders and stop pretending this is a genre thing. It’s not. There are toxic fans in the communities of the NY Yankees, the Ford Mustang and Gilmore Girls.

    It’s an internet thing. There are people post nasty stuff just because they can. It’s the combination attitudes of ‘I have a right to my opinion’ and ‘why should you care what anyone thinks’ that let peoole think it's okay to post stuff they wouldn't have the courage to say to a person's face.

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      A Lantern of HopeJa'mie Lannister, Private School Kingslayer
      9/06/18 2:27pm

      I really think we need to end the anonymity of the Internet. People with toxic views need to be exposed for who they are and face the consequences of their racism and misogyny. It’s not like any of us have privacy on here anyway (hi, NSA!).

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      TaziarA Lantern of Hope
      9/06/18 2:42pm

      Why? You want to criminalize being an asshole? How about other assholish behavior like adultery? If saying offensive shit is beyond the pale for you, surely we need to SEVERELY punish adulterers. Perhaps we should go with something progressive, like stoning.

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    TheEvilTwinJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 1:35pm

    I sometimes wonder if the harassment on Kelly Marie Tran would be different if Rose had taken part in a storyline that was better liked by fandom than the whole Canto Bight/Infiltration plot.

    Obviously there are fans that are just assholes and/or racist, but I always find it kind of weird that you never hear a lot vocal of criticism aimed at either Lupita Nyong’o, Thandie Newton or Jessica Henwick for their characters, which I would assume you would if most of the critism was based in racism and sexism.

    Maybe I’m just being naive, but I think that parts of the fandom that didn’t like her in TLJ will warm up to Rose in Episode IX if she is part of a plot that is less divisive. (At least I hope that is the case, KMT is a delight and I hope she doesn’t get “Jake Lloyded” by the overall experience).

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      Dr. OpossumTheEvilTwin
      9/06/18 1:43pm

      I do feel like Tran was made the scapegoat for a poor storyline, which is totally unfair, of course.  And it is weird that she is seen in this piece as a sign of diversity in Star Wars when Rose and Finn were given a story of such little significance to the main story, except to bring more death to the Resistance by their stupidity.

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      collexTheEvilTwin
      9/06/18 2:16pm

      I think you may be onto something here. Rose as a character really doesn’t shine in TLJ because everything she does is framed through a badly written subplot that end up making her, Finn and Poe responsible for the death of hundreds of Resistance members. Yes, some “fans” are just racist/sexist dicks, but I do think many (me included) just didn't like her because of the subplot she is in and, unlike Poe and Finn, we can't judge her on anything but this subplot. 

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    No OddjobJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 2:14pm

    Our podcast was alerted this morning that our twitter feed was included in this study, so we dove in immediately (mostly because we, like most folks, don’t condone this type of behavior and so we wanted to know what on earth we were being somewhat randomly associated with). We, too, weren’t very encouraged by how it was conducted nor how the selection of “fan accounts” was established. There are holes in the logic and big margins of error.

    My bigger concern is that I’m not sure that known “fan accounts” (associated with youtubers, podcasts, etc) are going to be the best (worst) representation of the level of vitriol that I assume drove KMT to hang up her social jacket for a while. Those are usually accounts with something at stake.

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      KatmanduNo Oddjob
      9/06/18 4:37pm

      Which podcast is yours? My blog does a weekly Star Wars podcast review column.

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      Jared LeeNo Oddjob
      9/06/18 5:05pm

      While I don’t want to dismiss this criticism - it’s important to look at study design and such generally - this is missing the forest for the trees.

      Toxic fan culture is a real thing and it has real world consequences.

      Anecdotally, I know from my time on The Replica Prop Forum (a group of folks generally obsessed with minutiae), that the fandom at large is at best not welcoming to diverse viewpoints and at worst outright hostile.

      We have one dude - whose online persona is a wookie - who claims that he and his “Star Wars IQ” system is really the metric by what a Star Wars film “should” contain. And yes, he has “assessed” the “SWIQ” of the various players such as Kennedy, Johnson, et al.

      In a Star Trek thread, we had posters complaining about LGBTQ+ characters in the show. Apparently during a party scene, two women kissed in the background. This was diversity “being shoved down [our] throats.” They attacked Sonequa Martin Greene for daring to take pride in being the first Black, woman, lead of a ST series. She didn’t accomplish anything, they say, because black female leads have been “done to death.”

      Maybe this study isn’t a perfect quantification of toxic fandom. But it’s a big problem.

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    CantHelpYouMosesJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 1:54pm

    I agree with the article...

    ...but I’m just going to also leave these (now deleted) twitter screenshot receipts of Rian Johnson (a writer and director in Hollywood) being an insecure bully to a YouTuber who happens to not LOVE his movie, and happens to have an (albeit spuriously sourced info) YouTube Channel. Talk about the low hanging Fruit. Mike Zeroh has every right to have a channel that RJ and his people may not like, endorse, or anything...but maybe Johnson should do what we all think the president should do and get off twitter for a few days if all he can think to do is ridicule a lowly YouTuber...like what the hell is even happening.

    You know who’s feeding the toxicity, and the whole Star Wars fandom wars between whatever varied “sides” there are? Rian Fucking Johnson...nine months after his movie has come and gone....perhaps we should ALSO look at him when we are talking about toxicity. Often the snarky shit he tweets helps exactly NOBODY in the conversation.

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      Killa KCantHelpYouMoses
      9/06/18 2:45pm

      Rian Johnson’s insistence on replying to fans on Twitter has made me cringe for a while now. Similar to when the director of Kong: Skull Island got upset at CinemaSins for their video, but worse because he’s reaching out and addressing people directly (and publicly). I’m not saying he “shouldn’t” do that (fuck it, it’s America), but it makes him look super-defensive.

      Rian, dude... step back.

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      CantHelpYouMosesKilla K
      9/06/18 3:02pm

      And that’s just it. I don’t care if people like the guys’ movie or not...I can’t picture Spielberg, or Nolan, or some of the other veteran creators in Hollywood lashing out on twitter at “fans” or anyone else for that matter. If you are confident in your art, you leave it out there and don’t bother with engaging with those who don’t like it. I mean, it’s basically the “ignore the trolls” thing.

      The Kong creators’ lengthy twitter lash out is a key example. CinemaSins is largely a satire channel...so lashing out at them is just odd...

      On top of that, he often does this whole “hahahahaha” laugh it off like it’s a hilarious joke thing (he’s done this a few times)...which speaks of a deep seated insecurity about his work.

      At the end of the day, don’t engage. Step away.

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    DakeJames Whitbrook
    9/06/18 1:21pm

    And something even harder to suss out - how much is just “weaponized trolling”? I know there are assholes out there, but then there’s a whole other subset that just like to jump on for the fun of it (and they’re almost worse).

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      meatwadfDake
      9/06/18 1:24pm

      I guarantee you that they won’t cover that. The idiots who drove Millie Brown off Twitter were barely covered.

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      Let Me In The House, Rosie!!!!meatwadf
      9/06/18 1:48pm

      Spider Jerusalem should cover it.

      If we really loved him, we’d all kill ourselves. 

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