Kinja reply list

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Nanook44Jason Johnson
11/30/17 1:22pm
Obama did not say that supporting the coup - begun by Libyan people in an effort to throw off the yoke of their oppressor - was his greatest mistake. In the very article you cited, he says his greatest mistake was “failing to plan for the day after.” That’s a massive distinction.
Effectively, we supported a popular rebellion against an unpopular, tyrannical leader and then had no plan in place for what to do next. Very similar to what happened in Iraq, except in that case, we created the rebellion through invasion. In Libya, the Libyan people had already seized the moment.
I respect your opinion here, but it’s wrong to say we shouldn’t have intervened in Libya because of where we are now. We should have given the Libyan people the material support they needed to rebuild their country vs. simply helping them win the war on the ground.
Also, it’s dangerous and wrong to give Gadaffi so much credit - you’re making him seem like a real champion for Black people. That’s not really the case. He was a pan-Africanist - along with many other “revolutionaries” who went on to oppress and exploit their own people all over the continent- but that was contingent on his being one of the people who would benefit most from such an arrangement. He was a strong man who wanted more power. We need look no further than how he treated his own subjects - many of whom were Black or had partial Black ancestry - to really see how he valued African people.
If you really want to understand why the Libyan slave trade has taken off, you need to look deeper than this. Yes, the lack of a central authority in Libya is a driving factor, though it’s not necessary that the authority be a dictator (unless you believe the Libyan people are only capable of being ruled by an authoritarian). But equally important is the money being funneled into informal authorities and underground networks by European countries in an effort to keep African refugees out of Europe and out of European waters, where they become responsible for their welfare. Great article on Foreign Policy about this exact thing.
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  whatamithinkingNanook44
  11/30/17 3:42pm
  You can’t deny that Libya under Gaddafi was a healthier and more stable place in many respects, least of all in education and free medical treatment. The guy carried out the world’s largest irrigation project. Libya had probably more gender equality than most Arab states, for one thing.
  And yes, he was a champion of Black people. It is no surprise that Nelson Mandela embraced him the way he did; it’s no surprise most Black liberation fighters on the continent and in the diaspora hailed him and sought his embrace.
  Gaddafi wasn’t perfect, but he was not the demon you try to make of him.
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  Nanook44whatamithinking
  11/30/17 4:21pm
  Of course I agree that Libya was a better place before he was ousted. Iraq was a better place before Saddam was ousted. These places were better because they had political stability. Do you believe that authoritarianism is the only way to produce stability in these countries? If not, then the way Gadaffi and Saddam ruled can never be justified. Let’s not forget, this was not a war the US or NATO started. This was a revolution.
  Gadaffi was embraced by other African leaders because he emerged as a voice for pan-Africanism, funding resistance movements and advocating for liberation. Mugabe did the same thing. I will not deny this, nor will I deny that he was on the right side of the struggle for South African equality while the US was, for far too long, on the wrong side. And yet in the end he became no better than the powers he railed against and his people rejected him. Gadaffi lived in excess while his country remained poor.
  He supported a lot of good causes. He supported a lot of violent extremists. He supported a lot of violent extremists with good causes. He was a pan-Arabist. Then he was a pan-Africanist. He was a socialist. Then he championed economic privatization. He spoke out against imperialism and the oppression of non-white peoples. Then he advocated for stronger ties with the West. He oppressed his own non-white people. He hated Jews until he died. he actively persecuted Berbers who did not adopt the Arabic language. He took money from the EU to prevent African immigrants and refugees from reaching European shores and producing (this is a direct quote) “Black Europe.”
  
  He was a man who did what he needed to do to retain power. And he was extremely effective. He was still an oppressor, and the majority of the people who laud him are leaders and political elites who are still exploiting their own people.
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HuskyBroJason Johnson
11/30/17 1:11pm
“Gadhafi may have been a nondemocratic dictator and a human-rights abuser, but...”
But? Dude was not a good human being and he did some awful things. So he was cool with black folks? He was still awful to others.
Taking out Gadhafi eliminated one wrong and created another. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
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  HumboldtGenesisHuskyBro
  11/30/17 1:34pm
  It’s a sad reflection of the human condition when one can soundly argue that a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad person was the only thing standing in the way of a conglomerate of evil bastards enslaving people. Like, how did we get here? I mean, Gaddafi was so evil that he literally looked like a demon wearing an ill-fitting human costume.
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  Jason JohnsonHuskyBro
  12/01/17 9:20am
  There are many many defenders of Qadaffi’s regime around the world (including some on this message board) that most American media did not cover. It’s similar to Putin, whom most American’s see as a dictator but he had defenders that claim he provides stability and pride to a nation that was on it’s heels for much of the 90's. The issue here though is that like most dictators he was a stabilizing force, and tamped down certain types of crimes and violence, and something like the open market slave trade on this scale wouldn’t be happening under his watch, even if other terrible things would be.
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skefflesJason Johnson
11/30/17 12:40pm
That war of choice is probably also to blame for rise of the far right across Europe, including England’s secession from the EU. Without the massive refugee problem created, and inspiring the utter idiocy of the Syrian civil war, the ugly mutterings of European racists would have remained just mutterings. The flood of refugees caused by Libya and Syria finally gave those bastards a banner cause, and everything exploded.
Here is the lesson for Every President (and World Leader) Stay the Fuck Out of The Middle East and North Africa. Not a single thing that we’ve ever done there has improved either the region or the world. Leave it the fuck alone.
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  snugglefuckskeffles
  11/30/17 1:27pm
  So you’re saying the refugee crisis is bad because it’s fueled latent white supremacy in Europe?
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  skefflessnugglefuck
  11/30/17 1:36pm
  Which in turn fueled the explicit racism that led to The Orange Nightmare’s Presidential run, which leads us to the shit we’re in now.
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BigDadaCoolBreezeJason Johnson
11/30/17 12:38pm
Help is gonna have to come from the grassroots level. We sure as shit ain’t getting any help from 45.
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  skefflesBigDadaCoolBreeze
  11/30/17 12:52pm
  Given how Trump “helped” Puerto Rico, that might not be an entirely bad thing.
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HuskyBroJason Johnson
11/30/17 1:01pm
“The Congressional Black Caucus has an African task force; they should be one this.
~~The CBC barely does anything for black people in America~~. I didn’t know they had this, I realize I don’t know much about the CBC at all. Do they have any real pull, seriously? It’s never too late to start, so I’m all in on getting them to speak up and get something going ASAP
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  missceeHuskyBro
  11/30/17 2:29pm
  I’m not about to play with you! I literally hollered.
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thatsjustmyhair-kinjadJason Johnson
11/30/17 1:27pm
Can we be clear that it is a good thing Gaddaffi is dead as he was a megalomaniac dictator who terrorized, oppressed, tortured and murdered Libyans for decades. No one misses that piece of shit. It’s good he is gone. Just like it’s good Saddam is gone and hopefully soon Assad as well. What’s bad is the USA’s complete and utter failure in the M.E. You can’t blow shit up and then leave and expect everything to be fine now.
Millions dead across the ME. From Palestine to Iraq to Eqypt through Libya because of horrible monster dictators that the USA continue to prop up and support.
Maybe now, because of this most recent exposure of human trafficking (that’s also been going on forever - now it’s just more visible and open. That door didn’t suddenly open at the Gaddaffi’s death. It was never shut to start with. It more flooded now because of the refugee crisis) something can actually be done to help these people and stop slavery and human trafficking. Maybe if we actually talk about the refugee crisis, what is fueling it in Africa and how we can address the insane amount of people leaving their countries to find work elsewhere, things may actually get better.
But laying it all at the feet of Gaddaffi is myopic. He doesn’t deserve that much credit.
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  inithatsjustmyhair-kinjad
  11/30/17 4:14pm
  What westerners never seem to realize is that countries develop at their own pace, now Gadafi and Sadam are gone the world is in much worse shape. The inability to realize that unless countries evolve on their own any ‘’government’s installed by western occupancy will fail as evidenced by Libya and Iraq. Western democracy is NOT ground zero of government and as should not be ascribed to all nations unless they chose it. This other types of government existed prior to it and trying to ram ‘’democracy down everyone throat has led to this cluster fuck. Have you ever thought that not everyone wants a democratic society? And as 45 has shown it is an illusion anyway which Americans love to cling to.
  Gadafii did not kill more people than US elected officials have over time, even now America cannot seem to stop wilfully killing its black citizens or letting them die by Gun Violence, yet Gadhafi is the monster because he was direct in his evil and not hiding behind the NRA or the Senate calling it repealing the ACA all of which result in death
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IAMMJALLDAYJason Johnson
11/30/17 12:17pm
Now that I know about this. What should I do to help stop it?
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  skefflesIAMMJALLDAY
  11/30/17 6:14pm
  Not much. In the short term you can support initiatives to make America take in more refugees from the conflicts we created, and donate money to charities which are on the ground in the region and understand the local issues.
  Long term the situation in North Africa needs to find its own equilibrium and from wherever it settles to start moving forward with North African generated players again from there. It’ll take decades for Libya to recover back to where it was even under Gaddafi, we need to not rush the process and be conspicuous by our absence from North Africa and the Middle East so the people find their own solutions in their own way.
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MssaywhatitisJason Johnson
11/30/17 12:17pm
I don’t have words.
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Jobu XJason Johnson
11/30/17 2:50pm
Too many people here have fully bought into the U.S.’s anti-Gaddafi propaganda to even consider the notion that Gaddafi’s reign was good for most Libyans.
Gaddafi’s biggest crime was that he didn’t kowtow to U.S. interests, and that got him killed, just like dozens of other African, Asian, and South American leaders over the last 70 years who also refused to put the U.S.’s interests in front of their own people’s.
A list of how things were in Libya under Gaddafi - this list is available at multiple locations, but I pulled this particular one from CNN International.
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-884508
There was no electricity bills in Libya; electricity is free … for all its citizens.
• There was no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
• If a Libyan is unable to find employment after graduation, the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.
• Should Libyans want to take up a farming career, they receive farm land, a house, equipment, seed and livestock to kick start their farms –this was all for free.
• Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
• A home was considered a human right in Libya. (In Qaddafi’s Green Book it states: “The house is a basic need of both the individual and the family, therefore it should not be owned by others.”)
• All newlyweds in Libya would receive 60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start a family.
• A portion of Libyan oil sales is or was credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
• A mother who gives birth to a child would receive US $5,000.
• When a Libyan buys a car, the government would subsidizes 50% of the price.
• The price of petrol in Libya was $0.14 per liter.
• For $ 0.15, a Libyan local could purchase 40 loaves of bread.
• Education and medical treatments was all free in Libya. Libya can boast one of the finest health care systems in the Arab and African World. All people have access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of charge.
• If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government would fund them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US $2,300/month accommodation and car allowance.
• 25% of Libyans have a university degree. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 87%.
• Libya had no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – though much of this is now frozen globally.
Gaddafi wrote, “They want to do to Libya what they did to Iraq and what they are itching to do to Iran. They want to take back the oil, which was nationalized by these country’s revolutions. They want to re-establish military bases that were shut down by the revolutions and to install client regimes that will subordinate the country’s wealth and labor to imperialist corporate interests. All else is lies and deception.”
Finally, the gold bullion held by the Libyan Central Bank (March 2011) was among the 25 largest reserves in the world, as reported by the Financial Times, citing the International Monetary Fund. This provided Libya a critical lifeline after billions of Libya’s assets were seized by the United States and the 27 member states of the European Union.
Many believe the NATO-led invasion of Libya was/is about oil and a vast wealth of other natural resources. Yet another critical element that few are aware of is the fact that Gaddafi had planned to introduce a single African currency made from gold. [Of this proposed African currency] Dr James Thring stated, “It’s one of these things that you have to plan almost in secret, because as soon as you say you’re going to change over from the dollar to something else, you’re going to be targeted … There were two conferences on this, in 1986 and 2000, organized by Gaddafi. … Most countries in Africa were keen.” This would have eradicated the US Dollar and Euro as trade currencies for Africa.
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