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    Prostate of Dorian GrayMichael Harriot
    3/17/17 11:14am

    The power of Tammany Hall absolutely helped them gain power and access. But for people to suggest that indentured servitude and slavery are the same ignores the realities. While both are evil, indentured servitude ends at some point. Slavery ends as well, but only at the point of death. That simple division of poor whites from enslaved blacks laid the groundwork for the tensions we have now. Instead of now being able to unite as the working poor, we all get to fight over the first few rungs of the ladder for ever dwindling social services.

    Also Micheal, you’re really good at this whole writing thing.  (Obviously I enjoy all of the writers here, just all for different reasons.) If you have any books out, I would love to know about them.

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      ns930Prostate of Dorian Gray
      3/17/17 11:41am

      I put his name into Amazon and came up with The Situation in South Carolina: A Novel. There are only six reviews, but they’re all positive!

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      Prostate of Dorian Grayns930
      3/17/17 11:57am

      Oh right. I have the entire internet at my disposal to look for books. I’m really dense sometimes. Thanks for handling my need for occasionally outsourced thinking. LOL!

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    TrumpsTinyHandsMichael Harriot
    3/17/17 10:28am

    “Whiteness is a construct”

    Tell that to my sunburned ass after 30 minutes in the sun. (Joking)

    Actually, when I was a young Irish-American in High School history class(c. 1980), our teacher was talking about the great Irish immigration, and he said: “There was a lot of discrimination against Irish at the time, they were portrayed and being dumb, dirty, and drinkers; which, if you think about it, they were.”

    We were all like, what the fuck did you just say? He was an old guy, of Italian descent and loved to talk about how great Italians were. Probably an old, racist Italian guy was not a great choice to treat American history.

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      PhoneBurnerElmoTrumpsTinyHands
      3/17/17 11:11am

      Funnily enough there was a time many Italians, sicilians actually, also weren’t white.

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      funnymonkeyPhoneBurnerElmo
      3/17/17 12:28pm

      Not that long ago, actually. When Reagan nominated Scalia to the Supreme Court, he considered it, essentially, an affirmative-action pick. He thought there should be an Italian-American on the Supreme Court. He basically asked if Scalia was Italian, talked to him for 15 minutes, and then offered him the nomination.

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    TheRealMarthaJones3.0Michael Harriot
    3/18/18 1:22pm

    In his book How the Irish Became White, author Noel Ignatiev notes, “While the white skin made the Irish eligible for membership in the white race, it did not guarantee their admission; they had to earn it.” Ignatiev and other scholars argue that the sons of Ireland gained their white status by joining the fight against abolition and uniting in the suppression of blacks—embracing the oldest American tradition of them all: racism

    They also did it by straight up murdering black people. See the New York Draft Massacre of 1863. Irish mobs killed black men, women, and children over four days. Lynching and beating them to death.

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    Kathy MahoneyMichael Harriot
    3/17/18 2:56pm

    The Klan burned crosses in front of Irish Catholic churches and homes. We were not allowed to bury our dead within the city limits — even Chicago - the oldest Catholic cemeteries are outside the city limits. We built Catholic schools because we weren’t allowed in the public schools. We arrived on coffin ships due to the “Famine” which was a genocide caused by the British stealing our crops and sending us to Australia as criminals if we stole our crops back. We were never slaves. We were never slaves. We were never slaves. And being a construct - the Irish -”became white”. Basically, WASP -White Anglo Saxon Protestants - looked around and saw their numbers diminishing and did a deal. My dad never believed Catholic schools were as good as public schools because they were scorned in his day. He never believed the Irish could become middle class, it was impossible in his day. We got the right to vote and organized. If you check out some “ethnic” boxes - you can see Latina (white) Latina (black) - so those who hold whiteness dear are dividing that population up into its race constructs. I am ashamed the Irish became white — maybe it was inevitable - but I can say I was shocked when Evangelicals came courting Catholics and changed course on abortion to win allies in its efforts to continue its war on blacks. We were low and suspect, then all of sudden - these guys are like buddy-buddy. When the heck did that happen. Reagan.

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      MalcireKathy Mahoney
      3/17/18 8:39pm

      “We were never slaves”

      Not really true. The Irish weren’t slaves in the US (you could make an argument about Cromwell’s action and the Caribbean but let’s say they weren’t as far as my point goes). The English and Irish actually enslaved each other quite a bit earlier in history. St. Patrick was an Englishmen taken as a slave (who hated the Irish).

      Probably besides your point. But I love shitty on ST Patrick’s day with the fact he hated the Irish and why.

      ETA: The Vikings took Irish slaves (and any others they could) as well. Just a fun fact.

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      nlpntKathy Mahoney
      3/17/18 10:38pm

      Irish (and other Catholic) kids were always welcome in public schools, but well into the 20th century - in some places right up until SCOTUS under Earl Warren ruled on school prayer - the schools would do their level best to make good mainline Protestants of them.

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    Lady CommentariatMichael Harriot
    3/17/17 11:01am

    Perfect timing—I live in Boston and the Irish bagpipers have just started.

    It’s depressing AF how some members of formerly oppressed groups turn around to become the oppressors and it boggles my mind how my great-grandma’s Irish soda bread recipe is considered a wonderful example of celebrating cultural heritage but people from non-white cultures need to just realize they’re not in their home country and that they’re American now (where, of course, America = white America). St. Patrick’s Day parades = an American tradition. Scottish Games = celebrating our heritage! Black History Month = Where’s white history month?! The hypocrisy makes my teeth hurt.

    On the topic of the construct of whiteness and the same tropes being used against subsequent waves of immigrant groups, it’s worth noting that the on-going pearl clutching about bilingual schools in favor of English-only instruction and the need for “those people” to learn “our language” was a thing back in the 1800's with German and Scandinavian immigrants in the midwest...and probably goes all the way back to the first non-English speaking immigrants. (Not counting the Indian boarding schools here as they weren’t immigrants and these were really forced detention/indoctrination centers.) Again, it’s all about the visibility/obviousness of one’s “otherness” and how quickly or easily this can be hidden in order for white America to accept people.

    (On a better note, make some soda bread because it is dense, bready deliciousness. Don’t need a dutch oven, can just form the loaf on a cookie sheet, but cut a cross in the top. It’s done when it sounds hollow when you tap the bottom. Toast it with some butter = heaven.)

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      PoorSluttyHeathenLady Commentariat
      3/17/17 12:24pm
      Illustration for article titled

      I’m second gen off the boat and I’m sorry but soda bread is fucking terrible. I love bagpipes, I encouraged my husband to wear a kilt at at our wedding, I have 40+ cousins. Soda bread is the worst. You want to talk immigrant bread? Naan. Alllll day. ALL DAY!

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      Lady CommentariatPoorSluttyHeathen
      3/17/17 12:57pm

      To each their own, but regarding choosing between naan and soda bread? I refuse. They are both delicious and serve different breadly functions.

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    TheBlightOfGreyMichael Harriot
    3/17/17 12:38pm

    And let’s not forget Irish music. It is fingernails on the chalkboard of music. Any random Coltrane solo contains more nuance, expression and complexity than the entire Irish genre.

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      headhunter212TheBlightOfGrey
      3/17/17 1:12pm

      Thanks for reducing an ancient, diverse musical culture to a nasty joke. Imagine if someone said the same thing about Jazz, Blues, Shirley Caesar, Marian Anderson, Leontyne Price, or Hip-Hop based on Coltrane’s unsteady intonation on the Soprano sax.

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      JT.HazeTheBlightOfGrey
      3/17/17 1:48pm

      Wait. What? Methinks youthinks Irish is a genre.

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    MarilynMichael Harriot
    3/17/17 1:26pm

    Before the Irish, the Germans were suspect, because too many were coming in and they kept speaking German - they even had German newspapers. Franklin called them “swarthy.” Some were indentured servants, like my ancestor, Leonard Ihrig (1773). But eventually they became white, for the same reason white women got the vote - they were needed to “bulk up” white power. My country, my country.

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      Mercenary ChefMarilyn
      3/18/18 4:38am

      I refuse to allow ‘swarthy’ to be an insult.

      Mayhap because I myself am a swarthy gentleman. Alas, such is life.

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    jlpubarchMichael Harriot
    3/17/17 2:30pm

    Same goes for Poles.

    Until they were the single largest volunteer force in WWII by Ethnicity, contributing 10% of servicemen despite only being 4% of the population. Italian-Americans were a close second.

    Its a shame that “natives” have to be fucking dicks to the “new kid in town” until the new kid shows them how its done.

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      iksworbeZjlpubarch
      3/22/17 3:16pm

      seems that us polaks are now the mexicans of the UK... the whole brexit campaign looked to me like a lot of “let’s build a wall to keep out the immigrants who are stealing our jobs” rhetoric without the actual brick and mortar of a physical wall

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      Not So Fast, Smartassjlpubarch
      3/17/18 7:34pm

      Its a shame that “natives” have to be fucking dicks to the “new kid in town” until the new kid shows them how its done

      Not to mention the audacity is RICH for people of European descent to be calling themselves the “natives” in America. Do they even realize the shit that is spewing from their mouths? I mean I guess in their defense, regarding the people from we stole this land from, I’m 36 years old, and have met LITERALLY ONE of them. One, in my entire life. Still, “nativist”, The fucking BALLS on these people.

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    BadOmbreMichael Harriot
    3/18/18 12:15am

    A point of personal privilege: I’ve seen more than one damning-with-faint-praise comments about how this is the first time you’ve seen Michael be deep, or the first time you’ve seen him research his facts, or how this is the first time you agree with him.

    You can save that shit. That says more about you then it does him, okay? I’ve vociferously disagreed with that guy, but that doesn’t ever mean he’s been a lightweight or lazy in his writing, on net.

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      Mercenary ChefBadOmbre
      3/18/18 4:50am

      Like NAWALT’s comment below about how Michael is ‘right for once in his life’?

      Seriously, who ungreyed that contrarian garbage? His comments are all over this thread and just shitting on everything.

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      BadOmbreBadOmbre
      3/18/18 5:48am

      YOU are tired, dear. Stop @ me.

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    det-devil-ailsMichael Harriot
    3/17/17 9:56am
    Illustration for article titled
    Illustration for article titled
    Illustration for article titled

    Cartoons from the days when the Irish were considered subhumans in America. (Hmm... now that I think about it, the way we celebrate St. Patrick’s Day would seem to indicate that they are still considered subhumans.)

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      headhunter212det-devil-ails
      3/17/17 1:15pm

      I always use that first image when these subjects arise. Try a little Thomas Nast, father of American Political cartoons, and a true hater of the Irish Catholic immigrant. http://www.printmag.com/illustration/nast-irish/

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      Not So Fast, Smartassdet-devil-ails
      3/17/18 7:39pm

      (Hmm... now that I think about it, the way we celebrate St. Patrick’s Day would seem to indicate that they are still considered subhumans.)

      This is what pisses me off the most.

      These dudebrahs are “honoring” the Irish by reveling in the worst of Irish stereotypes. How is it honoring your culture to act like a drunken buffoon, when the caricature of being a drunken buffoon is what was used to demean you? These are just frat bros who want drunkenness WITH A THEME, and an excuse to crank up the assholery even more than usual.

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