Kinja reply list

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Where are my keys?Raquel Willis
3/13/17 12:18pm
Well, at least I know I can write off 75% of you asshole commenters as transphobic fuckwads.
JFC, some of these replies are down right sickening. I’m embarrassed to be here. I’m embarrassed that so many of you really think this is a debate. I’m embarrassed by all you who can’t apply Sojourner’s words to any woman but the ones who look like you or have a similar medical past. Fuck this shit. Aren’t we better than this?
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  "Hachi"Where are my keys?
  3/13/17 1:10pm
  Many of these people are not true Root commenters. I’ve been watching this thread all morning and I am ashamed that some of these comments are in the black, particularly the ones that are outright transphobic. I’m all for dialogue and discussion but some of these comments are disturbing and just fucking wrong.
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  Miss Mercedes ♥✈ Small Vehicle JunkieWhere are my keys?
  3/13/17 1:13pm
  This is kinda why I don’t really like reading The Root. I’m not sure if these are the actual readers or trolls from other sites...either way it’s fucking disgusting.
  And I gotta say as well. Some months ago I took heat for mentioning that commenters here really love participating in the “Oppression Olympics”. Well, now I have a perfect example from one of the top comments in this thread:
  http://www.theroot.com/i-think-everyone-should-be-treated-fairly-but-transgend-1793211975
  How about protecting the true black women being raped, kidnapped and abused daily first before we talk about people who “CHOSE” to change their gender.
  Or in other words: “My plight is more important than yours, so you get nothing.”
  Well, racially I’m mixed race. I’m half-black but I appear latina to most in public. So, I guess the abuses and the hate I face on a daily basis don’t matter anymore because I’m trans? What kind of shit is that? I didn’t choose this, I didn’t want this. I’d rather be a cis man and happy, but that reality does not exist.
  Yes, some groups have faced far greater oppression than others, but that does not mean that one should just ignore every other oppressed group because of that fact. We have to share this damn world with everyone, how about we fight for everyone’s rights?
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The Cranberry Cap'nRaquel Willis
3/13/17 10:02am
If there’s any need for evidence that feminism still has quite a ways to go to become truly intersectional, one should look no further than this comment section. TERFs abound, more interested in the oppression olympics than liberating one another.
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.”
- Audre Lourde
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  neuroradical1The Cranberry Cap'n
  3/13/17 10:14am
  Yeah, it is super depressing that we still have so far to go
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  JoshMCThe Cranberry Cap'n
  3/13/17 10:50am
  Indeed. Just because someone may not have come up knowing the struggles of women doesn’t mean they’re not experiencing them now.
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neuroradical1Raquel Willis
3/13/17 9:34am
Let’s all make a commitment in these comments to not engage the Dolezaltrolls yeh?
There are plenty of resources out there for folks who legitimately want to have a discussion about that topic
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  Tall Glass Of Cakeneuroradical1
  3/13/17 10:49am
  Far too many assholes purposefully ask a million questions just for lulz.
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  Wind Makes Fire DanceTall Glass Of Cake
  3/14/17 11:33am
  It’s a common tactic used to derail discussions, legitimize beliefs, and tire marginalized people of all types.
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NutmegcontradictionsRaquel Willis
3/13/17 9:35am
What makes you a woman or a man? If it’s not genetics, or the way society treats you, is it a gut feeling that it’s what you are? When you look at people like Kaitlynn Jenner (not the representative of all trans women) who speak about make up and high heels as being the essence of woman hood, it makes me wonder if feeling like a woman just means that you feel like what society tells you a woman should feel. Clothes, shoes and makeup don’t make me a woman or a man. What makes a boy who wants to wear make up and heels different from a boy who says he is a girl? It seems so centered on external expression.
PS: I don’t believe people should be discriminated against. It literally does nothing to me to address someone the way they want to be addressed and afford them basic human rights and peace
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  TheDrDonna Wants a Buppet of CopcornNutmegcontradictions
  3/13/17 10:12am
  External expression is usually the visible result of internal knowledge. There are femme boys and butch girls, neither of which is trans. People who actually transition can have any gender presentation, from butch trans women to femme trans guys, and that doesn’t make them any less of their identified gender.
  Gender identity is internal knowledge, it’s a sense of one’s own body, and it’s unchangeable-which is why doctors and psychiatrists change a person’s outside, since changing their inside doesn’t work.
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  LaynNutmegcontradictions
  3/13/17 10:28am
  Caitlyn Jenner says make up and high heels are the essence of womanhood the same way some cis women say/believe that. It’s probably way more things for her, but that’s the aspect that is easiest for her to talk about and is probably what is making her the happiest currently.
  The thing is, we don’t really have the language to be able to even begin to talk about what makes a gender. We haven’t really explored it at all, largely due to society denying the existence of trans people. We started off with a dogma “this is gender” instead of taking a look at it and then making theories. And while our larger understanding is growing quite a bit, it’ll be quite a while until we can even come close to solidifying our concept into something that can actually be summarized.
  At least that’s what I figure after thinking a lot about it. I guess a way I could define it is... It’s feeling belonging to a group even if the other members are completely different from myself. And even that’s just too shallow of an explanation and also not quite right.
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LordSnow1421Raquel Willis
3/13/17 10:50am
This isn’t a debate.
But it is.
I agree with you 100%, and I think it’s damaging to the trans community when society tries to “other” them, and section them off into their own little box instead of accepting the gender the person states that they are. But my WASPish neighbors and co-workers don’t feel that way. There is a large percentage of this country that feels strongly that there is something wrong with trans men and women, and at best will half-heartedly accept them while viewing them as something grotesque, and at worse will openly and sometimes violently discriminate against them. Saying it’s not a debate indicates the matter is closed and resolved, but we are a long way from that. Trans folks and their allies need to be equipped to enunciate and defend their position. Should it have to be that way? Absolutely not, but it’s the unfortunate reality we deal with. There is still very much a debate and it needs to be overwhelmingly crushed. This will take time and support, vocal and otherwise from the trans community and their allies.
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  AustinLordSnow1421
  3/13/17 11:07am
  This is not a debate, but a war for basic rights. And unfortunately the right wing twists it to be a fight for them to persecute LGBTQ+*
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  LordSnow1421Austin
  3/13/17 11:10am
  It’s absolutely a war. I was responding to the author’s specific use of the word debate, but yes. It’s a fight. It’s sad and frustrating that we have to battle with half the country (maybe less than half, but I only have so much optimism in me) about something like human/civil rights, but here we are. This will end up being a war of attrition just like with may other social issues. Time and exposure will likely do more for the cause than anything.
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rentaduckieRaquel Willis
3/13/17 1:01pm
What the hell website am I on? These comments suck.

You don’t have to show me your parts to prove that you’re a woman. I’ll walk with you across the parking lot at night, I’ll give you a hair tie, and I’ll watch your drink or purse for you. I’ll go with you to the bathroom and guard the door if needed. I’ll listen when you talk to me, and I have chocolate if that’s your thing.

How is this so hard for people?
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  reasonable-n-rationalrentaduckie
  3/13/17 8:47pm
  Hear, hear! These comments are so disheartening and ugly. Why is it so hard to validate a person who has gone through the mental and physical anguish that it takes to transition? These people already have to jump through all kinds of hurdles just to get to the transitioning process (physically), why make it that much more difficult for them to live comfortably?
  I love my trans sisters and brothers, and my gender neutral folks, and my genderqueer folks. They all deserve to live as comfortably and safe* as the rest of us!
  *Which is to say that acknowledging their gender identities, especially as cis-gendered people, plays a massive part in that safety
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  PhoneBurnerElmoreasonable-n-rational
  3/13/17 11:24pm
  Love your sisters not just your cisters!
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BobeauxRaquel Willis
3/13/17 2:23pm
Thank you Raquel for kindly expressing your narrative which is that of many trans-women. I also appreciate that you are not denouncing Chimamanda for expressing her thoughts on this topic as you acknowledge the vernacular used was evasive.
I have quite a few thoughts on this that I’d like to share and discuss in a respectable manner because I am not a trans-woman. I am here for trans-women and understand that my personal understanding of their identity is not their problem. I would also like for many women who are trans to understand the same rule applies to women who are not trans, otherwise considered cis-women. Your understanding of our identities as cis-women is not our problem, meaning none of us have a right to demonize the other about what being a woman means, should be considered, etc.
I believe that there is an inherent difference between cis-women and trans-women. My ignorance about trans-women lies on the premise that I don’t understand the logic behind it. I acknowledge and admit my views are skewed because I am still understanding gender. The sex I was born was female. From what I see in discussion or argument via the internet, which always leaves me with question, is that gender encompasses societal constraints/norms that signify behavioral concepts. For example, the idea that femininity isn’t exactly exclusive to women alone but in society it is a defining trait that is seclusionary by default, same for masculinity in men. Here is where my confusion stems, if gender is how you identify in terms of femininity or masculinity which are often assumed roles prescribed by society, why not just identify with traits attributed to either without saying you’re a woman? Why then would one want to look like the archetype or “prototypical” form as someone who was born cis-female (as in sex via birth) and not just ascribe your gender to the proximity of the societal group you discover and/or feel you belong to? My inquiry is genuine and I’m trying to be as careful and considerate with my wording as possible because my quest is not to denounce women who are trans as an “other”, albeit if being simple-minded in my thoughts? I’d see no problem with saying trans-women are trans-women. I recognize that can be potentially harmful and make others feel lesser than those who were born women via birth.
As a black cis-woman, I have faced severe demonization and oppression not only for my race, culture and phenotypically ‘identifiably black’ attributes, but for being a woman all at the same time. Yes, I can imagine that women who are trans, especially those who are black, have to deal with not only those issues, but the burden of being treated as though they don’t belong because they were once male (in terms of sex via birth not by gender identity). I recognize that there is a unique pain in your struggle(a) that where this is not and where there is for every other woman, and yes, you deserve the proper representation and respect we all do. My question to women who are trans, and men who are trans, stands still. My question is why do many trans-women, and bare in mind I see this exceptionally often much to my dismay, simultaneously blame cis-women for the erasure of the identity of trans-women? I can only speak for myself and I know that being a woman is much more than being “harassed” on the street which is a ridiculous rhetoric, in my opinion, seemingly used to state what cis-women face. Not all cis-women experience that either despite the majority having high susceptibility to such. On the other end, I simultaneously believe that trans-women who use the rhetoric that not all women have periods, have the ability to birth children, etcetera are also ludicrous because while that is true, the exceptions in such case do not make the rule. To me, that line of rhetoric from trans-women is just as ludicrous as the rhetoric used by cis-women. We have our differences as women in general, and we need to be completely transparent with eachother regardless of the sex we were born into, the genders we ascribe to, the races we are, cultures we inherit, the sizes and shapes of us, etc. I am absolutely saddened when I see trans-women blame cis-women for a lot of the issues they face as it’s not only unfair to many of us who genuinely want to stand with you as women, but just unfair because many tend not to also realize that many cis-women are just learning about the concept of someone being trans-gendered in a healthy and informative way. I’m not saying they should express their blatant ignorance in detrimental ways, but I am saying the sensitivity towards cis-women needs to be exhibited and vice verse for trans-women. A cis-woman has a right to be confused, just as how trans-women have a right to be confused about many cis women not understanding them and their belonging in our space as women overall.
As I mentioned earlier, I am a black cis-woman and I don’t take kindly to the demonization from anyone, especially women who are trans that belittle all of the struggles that I have faced from birth. My struggle may not completely be yours but please know and respect I have struggled as a woman period, add that to black, a black woman. I may not know all you’ve faced and I know what you face is a lot, but so many people who advocate for trans-women do so in the vain of “look at this privileged cis-woman”, how dare the people that do this? Don’t erase me from being a woman either. Don’t erase me from my oppression that I was born into via sex. I know the sex I was born doesn’t give me leverage of those who are intersex, trans, etcetera, so please think of us the same in that respect.
Be fair to those of us who want to embrace you and learn about you from you. You in the same vain do not know about us or what we go through as cis-women, so please be respectful. I am genuinely interested in having an educational discussion and learning from a woman who is trans. I want to learn from all women but I especially want to learn from other marginalized women, as a stranger, as a sister, as an unknown friend regardless of what separates us.
I just do not and will not stand for people demonizing me and telling me I’m transphobic because I want to learn or simply don’t fully know. You don’t fully know what it is like for us just because you are a woman too. I was born into being a woman via conception, that’s the sex that was prescribed unto me, the gender I’ve adapted follows suit of that. Just as how the sex you were born into was prescribed to you by chance, so was mine. I salute your existence and I will never erase trans-women from our community as women. But don’t erase cis-women and tell us to take a back seat because we are “transphobic”/shouldn’t speak about our experiences as cis-women because it erases you, I don’t do that to trans-women because I acknowledge the differences and similarities in our experiences. My existence and reality doesn’t erase you just how yours doesn’t erase mine. The same respect you seek is the same I seek in sharing my existence. I’m not going to play the “struggles game” with anyone because I know I’ve struggled as a dark-skinned, nappy headed, wide-nosed, identifiably black, young black woman who is oppressed by society and has always been invisible. No one has a right to tell cis women or trans women what their experience is. That is the flaw I find in these discussions. Just as how its toxic to blame trans-women for including themselves in womanhood, it’s toxic and detrimental to blame us from speaking our struggles.
Thank you Raquel for sharing your story and being an advocate for women who are marginalized as trans-women especially those who are black.
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  ns930Bobeaux
  3/13/17 3:31pm
  I am a white cis woman. As such, I can’t address some of what you said, but I do want to touch on other aspects, what you mention as “unfair” treatment and so on. My response here is not meant to be confrontational or snarky.
  If I, as a white person, said a lot of that similar stuff regarding race (rather than gender), what would be your reaction? This is rhetorical, but I ask it to get you to look at your response through a different lens.
  As a white reader of The Root, and one who mostly lurks, I have been trying very hard to be mentally open and use my reading of this as a learning opportunity, this includes most of the comments as well. One example I can give is the whole thing regarding “wypipo.” I consider myself to be a nice person. I do not resort to calling people names, even those I have disdain for (I don’t feel it’s productive). As such, I initially bristled at the word and thought it was “unfair.” Reading other posts and comments regarding it has changed me, and I feel better for it, now realizing that my initial view was myopic.
  To your remarks on trans women and the “blame” some of them have for their cis sisters, I can only point to some of the bigoted examples from the comments on this piece as to part of the reason why, or other examples of TERFism, like Germaine Greer. Instead of embracing these trans women AS women and welcoming them with open arms, these cis women have said, “not one of us,” devalued and discounted them. I think it’s only natural that some trans women react defensively in such a way, even in the presence of allies, just as I think it’s natural for AAs to react defensively, even in the presence of allies. As an ally, I have to know that it isn’t directed at me.
  Far too often, there can feel like there are more “anti” than there are “pro,” which must be incredibly demoralizing and depressing. I think the internet has been a huge boon for education and support for marginalized groups, but as some of these comments show, it also allows bigots a platform for their hatred.
  I do not consider myself to be very feminine, nor do I have very many life experiences that are common to many women. Nevertheless, I consider myself to be a women; I know I am one. And yet I don’t know why I feel this way. I can’t point to a specific thing that makes me feel like a women to myself, inside my own mind. It is just a truth I have about myself. If I can’t do that for myself, I certainly can’t expect a trans woman to be able to do that, she just is, and I recognize that we are both women together.
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  Bobeauxns930
  3/13/17 5:17pm
  I appreciate you replying but I will never compare race to this mainly because I have been greatly affected since my conception because I am black. Racism is a completely different topic that I won’t even bring up today mainly because I have nothing to explain to a Caucasian person about race, racism, etc even if you’re not yourself.
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ugh123456Raquel Willis
3/13/17 3:06pm
I don’t know about this. I don’t agree that trans women are the same as natural born women. I don’t even think they’re the same as lesbians. Life experience, whether negative or positive, cannot be discounted. We have been girls since childhood. We have been conditioned to think a certain way, and have been treated differently by everyone from childhood for being girls. And comparing gay and transgender struggles to the struggles of black society is a stretch as well, and does not help the argument. Where is the 400 years of slavery transgender people went through? Where is their emotional trauma passed on through generation after generation of families? Like the C-PTSD that has gone through my family from my grandparents down to me?
Many transgender people only experienced adversity once they decided to become women, before that many of their lives as men were nowhere near as fraught with micro-aggresions or just outright aggression as a natural born woman. They didn’t have to grow up hiding their budding breasts out of fear of being harassed on the street, in fact, they often flaunt what they have as soon as they get it because they’re happy to finally have it. They never learned to be ashamed of their female bodies because of religion or other backwards ideas society pushes on us. They didn’t have to squirm and wriggle away from men who got too touchy when they were little girls. Where is their PMS and PMDD, their endometriosis and Menopause? Or the myriad of other hormonal issues natural born women have to deal with throughout their lives, not to mention the roller coaster of emotions after childbirth, and Postpartum depression. When do they have to choose between birth control that kills their sex drive or risking pregnancy? When have they faced an abortion? Or let’s go a step further, when have they faced needing an abortion after a rape?
Then there is the fact that a lot of transgender women put forward a caricature of what they believe a woman should be, and they often demean natural born women as not being feminine enough or as feminine as they are. This is beyond ridiculous and offensive. It makes it hard to take trans women seriously.
They pushed forward the idea of discounting the male and female gender without asking us how we felt about it. There is even conversation about eliminating the word vagina floating around. Like really??? Wtf?
Oftentimes trans women come off exactly like men, man-splaining to women what it means to be a woman and which of our experiences define us and how. Or which experiences we shouldn’t allow to define us, or how we’re defining ourselves the wrong way. Or we’re this, we’re that. Exactly like men.
When transgender women learn to identify the qualities about themselves that are just as pushy and inconsiderate as the way straight men regard straight women, then maybe there can be a real conversation about natural born women and transgender women being the same. Until then, they’re just being condescending and inconsiderate.
Every time I read one of these articles, I take a deep breath and hope for a different tone and a more nuanced perspective. As opposed to the same ideas being regurgitated from one article to the next. Because I truly want to get passed the things society has pushed on us. I have worked to strip myself of a lot of prejudice. But all these articles ever talk about is how natural born women are failing transgender women. Maybe it’s time to evaluate your approach and ask yourself if you’re only thinking about your desire to be accepted, without considering if the way you’re asking is even respectful or considerate to our life experience. How do trans women talk to natural born women? How do they treat one another? Because in my personal experience and from observation, there is a lot of cattiness and confrontation. And this cattiness is celebrated as diva attitude and throwing shade. I don’t see a loving, inviting environment when I see the trans community. I just see men who became women and now want to define what a woman is.
Don’t try to tell us what we are if you don’t want the same done to you. And that is exactly what transgender people do at every turn. From criticizing women to expecting straight men not to be angry when they find out they’re involved with someone who used to be a man and wasn’t upfront about it.
Values don’t change over night. If you want to be accepted, start by trying to understand instead of making demands. No matter how much you try to invalidate the complexity of the female experience by saying things like, women aren’t only their struggles, or transgender struggled too!, it won’t change the fact that we HAVE struggled, and our struggles ARE different from yours; even if some of those troubles intersect, it just isn’t the same experience and never will be.
You’re talking about people’s identities and worldview. There’s race, religion, society, political views, gender politics, education or lack thereof to take into account. So many things affect who we are and so many of us are just beginning to shed a lot of that conditioning. It’s hard to change ideas you didn’t realize were wrong until years into adulthood.
Just because you were happy to shed who you were told you had to be the moment you got the chance, doesn’t mean everyone else wants to do that or is going to jump at the opportunity.
Stop trying to equate your experience to ours, or negate our experience altogether, and we might be more open to understanding yours. Until then, you’re going to have a hard time, and not just with conservatives.
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  Austinugh123456
  3/14/17 12:03pm
  Hey, sis. Thanks for taking g the time to post. I disagree, and will explain why. Caveat, I am cis m, so my explanation is unqualified.
  C - who dated me for about a year - is trans. C began transition during our relationship. C’s childhood was not a happy one; C identified as female but was physically abused by parents and beaten by peers, from a young age. C’s female experience - though born with a penis - may be different from yours, but she has the same brain structure as any random neurotypical cis woman. It is not as if C decided on a whim to spontaneously be female after experiencing a privileged male life .
  (though I would, given the opportunity, choose to experience life as a woman - in order to better understand and empathize with my fellow humans)
  “Now, I’m very sorry, but that does not make you the same as me.”
  Nobody can be you; nobody has your exact DNA and rearing. Even among cis women alone, there are those who can never have children, those who have never experienced mens- fuck autocorrect - periods, and those incapable of orgasm. Does lacking one of these I validate their femininity? No? Then why would C be any different?
  Trans women are women too. They may require more medical care for their body than cis do, but they are undeniably female in brain and soul.
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  BioBotAustin
  3/14/17 12:55pm
  Look, there’s no such thing as a “female” brain or a “male” brain.
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BlackPenRaquel Willis
3/14/17 9:18am
I’m reading “We should all be feminists” She said this:
The problem with gender is that it prescribes how we should be rather than recognizing how we are.
I think she may have made a mistake but I don’t think she’s transphobic. Isn’t she right to say gender is sociology. She’s saying there is nuance. I don’t see the problem. Transwomen are women with a different sociological experience. There is a difference but it doesn’t make them less than.
I’m open to changing my mind (If I’m not banished to greys)
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  TheDrDonna Wants a Buppet of CopcornBlackPen
  3/14/17 11:33am
  I think a lot of people are reacting to her (ongoing) inability to state unequivocally that trans women are women, full stop. I understand part of her point-trans women’s experiences can differ greatly from cis women’s, especially if they transition later in life. But, she’s ignoring trans women who transition as children, and she also seems curiously incapable of just saying, “Yes, trans women are women.” Since there’s a certain sect of radical feminism that seeks to exclude trans women from feminism (and ignores trans men altogether, but that’s not really pertinent), she’s kind of getting involved in an ongoing battle that she doesn’t appear to understand very well. Her words are kind of similar to the justifications that those trans-excluding feminists have used in the past, and that’s what is inciting such strong reactions from trans folks and allies.
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  BlackPenTheDrDonna Wants a Buppet of Copcorn
  3/14/17 12:59pm
  Thanks for taking the time to lay that out for me. I just finished reading “We should all be feminists” on my lunch break. My girlfriend bought it not for me but for my cousin who sneered “You’re not a feminist are you?” to me and my gf. I decided I should read it before passing it along. Good short read.
  I worry that infighting in progressive oriented communities hurts a good message and let’s Youtube trolls poison the well for people like my young cousin. I’ll be giving her the book tonight.
  I think you’re right. I’ve been struggling with my own view on trans issues though I’ve always leaned towards the idea that trans women are women. However, it bothers me that I hesitate to discuss the subject and be labeled an opponent like this author was.
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MadDaprRaquel Willis
3/13/17 7:37pm
I understand, and recognize that this diatribe Chimamanda went on was very much focused on the lines of individuals such as Caitlyn Jenner. I’m not going to say that Caitlyn Jenner is the model person speaking for trans rights, but I do find it very interesting that Chimamanda’s viewpoint (which I happen to agree with more than I disagree with it) echoes the same sentiments shared by Jenner during her interview during “The Trans List” documentary.
Gender is not biological. And when someone lives as another gender (whether it is the gender they identify with or not) you can not admonish that experience, and there is a separate experience for trans people than there is of cis-gender people. Those experiences shape who people are. It is not disrespectful to acknowledge the uniqueness of the trans experience. But I know this is weird coming from me, so I’ll prepare to catch slander as a cishet black masculine expressing man
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  AustinMadDapr
  3/14/17 12:51pm
  Right. It’s just that Adiche often echoes the same lines used by those who want to enact discrimination against LGBTQ folk. Trans folk will never have the same experience as cis folk, even though the share a gender and experience similar things. The total life experience sum of Caitlyn Jenner is different than that of my mother. And yet, they are both women. The cis and trans qualifiers are useful medically and for delineating experiences, but not for arbiting gender.
  Cool post, bro.
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  AustinMadDapr
  3/14/17 12:52pm
  Right. It’s just that Adiche often echoes the same lines used by those who want to enact discrimination against LGBTQ folk. Trans folk will never have the same experience as cis folk, even though the share a gender and experience similar things. The total life experience sum of Caitlyn Jenner is different than that of my mother. And yet, they are both women. The cis and trans qualifiers are useful medically and for delineating experiences, but not for arbiting gender.
  Cool post, bro.
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