Kinja reply list

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UncleCCClaudiusHamilton Nolan
7/03/13 11:45am
Independent truckers already have it rough. Their only product is getting something from point "a" to point "b" in a set amount of time and at a competitive rate. Their trucks are often leased, so every hour the truck is idle is lost money.
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  MalforusUncleCCClaudius
  7/03/13 12:04pm
  Very true, I am hoping there was some kind of information which promoted the idea that 82 hours was too much.
  
  I mean if they had crash data or proof that once drivers exceeded 70 hours they were a detriment on the road I would be supportive.
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  Normcore RockwellUncleCCClaudius
  7/03/13 12:09pm
  While I'm sympathetic to the economic realities of independent truckers, this isn't different from hour limits placed on turn-of-the century (or in China's case, modern) factory workers? Regulation exists where the marketplace doesn't provide enough incentive (or offers a deterrent) against safe practices, right?
  
  Also, I'm not an economist, but given that there will be fewer available trucker-hours in the marketplace, wouldn't the scarcity increase the price of each trucker-hour?
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Jackalope777Hamilton Nolan
7/03/13 2:17pm
As the son of a trucker, I used to spend many a summer on the road with my dad. Please believe me when I say that the writer of this article has a fundamental misunderstanding of how the trucking industry works and who to blame. Having a sensationalist headline to imply the blame is that of the "never satisfied" trucker is just another in a long list of misplaced accusation. I can't count how many times a delivery had to made in a certain amount of time that made it mathematically impossible to deliver anywhere close to deadline when trying to work less than 70-80 hours a week. How do you think EVERYTHING you buy gets to you? Plane? Offloaded on to a truck and delivered to a brick and mortar store or your door. Rail? Ship? Same thing. As far as accusing truckers for accidents, consider that in order to get a Class A license, a person has to go through an insane amount of testing, both written and road, not to mention a full medical physical in order to work for almost any national trucking company. Those drivers are SKILLED. Then consider how "hard" it is to get a regular Class D license in any state, a joke of a written test where you only need a 70 percentile to pass and then a couple of blocks around the DMV environs for 15 minutes. Living in Los Angeles, I can testify that the majority of people I see driving around on four wheels should never be let anywhere NEAR a car, let alone drive one. I encourage the writer Hamilton, to spend a few days on the road with a trucker and see what it's ACTUALLY like on the road and then see if he feels like adding more insult to injury on some of the hardest working people in this country.
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  Hamilton NolanJackalope777
  7/03/13 3:40pm
  That was a joke, but I appreciate your comment.
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muypeligrosoHamilton Nolan
7/03/13 12:18pm
Truckers (at least the independent/smaller ones) don't make an hourly rate, they're paid per mile, roughly $.30-$.35 per. So, you have to figure that cutting ten hours of driving per week at highway speeds (60-75 mph) is anywhere between 600-750 miles, or anywhere between $200 to $275 out of their paychecks, which is a lot of shit to eat if you're supporting a family on an already tenuous middle class wage. I can totally see where they're coming from.
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  CaptainNicmuypeligroso
  7/03/13 1:04pm
  Isn't this before they pay for gas? Which cuts out MOST of that profit already? So the net loss is nowhere near as drastic as you make it out to be.
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  muypeligrosoCaptainNic
  7/03/13 1:06pm
  I'm not sure I see your point.
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talktotalktoHamilton Nolan
7/03/13 12:10pm
I think part of the animosity comes from the fact that most regulations put on truckers are in the name of safety, but professional truckers are already the safest guys on the road. It's all the civilian idiots that literally don't know how to control their cars, understand the rules of the road, and otherwise believe driving is something that's done while multitasking phone conversations, eating, and reading.
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  redeyetalktotalkto
  7/03/13 12:56pm
  I drove a truck for four years. I've seen drivers driving a 40 ton truck guilty of most of the behaviors you describe. However, the average long haul trucker drives 120,000 miles or more per year in all types of traffic and weather conditions. Most people don't drive that much in 10 years. So the amount of driving experience of a long haul trucker can't really be compared to a four wheel car driver.
  
  Also consider trucking companies pay huge insurance premiums. Any driver that causes an accident will soon be looking for a new line of work. At that point they are considered an insurance/safety risk.
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  araucaniadredeye
  7/03/13 3:00pm
  You might be surprised how lax some employers are at checking MVRs. I've seen insurance applications with MVRs that have all kinds of violations on them. what if the driver is a relative of the owner?
  
  long haul drivers might be experienced drivers, but how familiar are they with the routes they are driving? they take shipments here, there, and everywhere. they aren't familiar with grades and curves, causing overturns and jackknifes; and they don't always pre-check overhead clearances so that they strike overpasses with oversize loads.
  
  how many drivers cheerfully accept when the boss asks them to drive a double or triple, when the driver has zero experience or training with these hauls? how many drivers are really qualified to assess whether that oversize cement tube or crane has been adequately strapped to their flatbed?
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HoorayBeer!Hamilton Nolan
7/03/13 11:54am
I'd say a contribution to large truck accidents are probably attributed to idiot drivers in small cars driving like assholes, cutting them off.
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  PyrJhnHoorayBeer!
  7/03/13 12:43pm
  As this is my job to deal with, you hit the nail on the head. Probably more than half of the claims I work could have been avoided if idiots in cars didn't drive around tractor-trailers like they weigh the same as a Lotus Elise.
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  RedRoabHoorayBeer!
  7/03/13 1:27pm
  Yes, I don't see how working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, operating a truck could be a problem.
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Gabrielle CyniqueHamilton Nolan
7/03/13 11:59am
Dammit. Now how am I supposed to get 400 cases of Coors beer from Texarkana to Georgia in 28 hours with these kind of sumbitch gummint regulations?
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  Deal Killer - Powered by FocusGabrielle Cynique
  7/03/13 12:23pm
  Easy, I'll run blocker for you. East bound & down, 10-4 good buddy!
  
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  Gabrielle CyniqueDeal Killer - Powered by Focus
  7/03/13 12:29pm
  Got that stupid song stuck in my head now. Only way to remove it is to seek it out on YouTube.
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araucaniadHamilton Nolan
7/03/13 11:59am
There's a lot of independent owner-operators out there. The problem of overwork is not confined to the owner-ops, however. Many, many drivers working as employees of a company are caught falsifying their hours-of-service logs, or just not keeping logs altogether. The Federal DOT has a website (SMS, Safety Management System) where you can look up any trucking company based on their DOT or MC number (the numbers are supposed to be printed on the cabin doors of any company) and see what violations they've had in the last couple of years.

The biggest problem I see with owner-operators is that they don't have the negotiating position to demand adequate rates. So they skimp on maintenance. This results in trucks' brakes catching on fire and other kinds of preventable accidents, which endanger all of us. Also, in their interest to save time, they'll drive dangerously. And they'll accept jobs that take them anywhere - sometimes without even getting enough freight rate to be able to get home again.

Unionization won't work for owner-operators (would that it could). And if they're fined for violations, or sued for damaging cargo, they can always "go out of business" and start again under a new name. (Shady companies do this just as much as owner-ops.) The trucking industry is a tough business. Yes, I'm in favor of throwing people in jail if they violate the hours-of-service or falsify their logs. This is a life-safety issue. If you cut down on the amount of hours people are able to work, the market will readjust. Just like it did when we banned child labor in this country and people said it was going to impoverish families who depended on their children's wages.

One structural change that could help would be greater use of railroads for long-distance hauling. And for the population clusters along the coasts, we could use more "coastwise" or "short-sea shipping", as is commonly done in Europe. Shipments from outside Europe arrive aboard large ships at a port like Le Havre or Bremerhaven, and as much cargo as possible is offloaded onto smaller ships for further shipment by water (the most efficient form of transport) to smaller ports, cutting down on the amount of trucks doing long-haul on the highway. The US DOT has tried to encourage this; one short-sea company started here in the US a couple of years ago but went bankrupt, last I'd heard (American Feeder Lines).
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  LocalSParaucaniad
  7/03/13 12:05pm
  Excellent post.
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KCguy62Hamilton Nolan
7/03/13 2:34pm
Actually, the amount of sleep they get does not change under this rule. The comment seen frequently that these changes "reduce driving time from 82 to 70 hours a week" is not accurate.

That 82 hour figure does not exist anywhere in current or past trucking regulations. In fact, you have to use some pretty advance math to get that many hours in. You'd also have to be running a truck flat out, in a manner virtually impossible to do in reality, and run loads when there are typically no loads to run. I'd be surprised if it has ever happened.

The actual regulation allows 70 hours of work - not driving, but all work - in 8 days. Look it up.

Also that 13 percent fatigue accident figure? That's from a study that shows what factors are present during an accident - not what the cause is. The Transportation Department person paraphrased there apparently forgot the FARS study (produced by DOT, by the way - they do have precise figures, based on the actual police reports of those accidents). The FARS study shows actual causes. Fatigue is the cause in about 1.2 percent of those crashes - in the worst year. What causes 75 percent of those accidents that "involve" a truck - the other vehicle.

Oh, and while your meth joke was entertaining, remember that truckers are all regularly tested for drugs. It has never been a major cause of accidents in the industry, and is not now. Most truckers don't need them - when they're tired, they pull over and rest till they're not.

Oh, and unionizing - not possible under current federal law for most of the industry. Half of all trucking companies are one-truck operations - 90 percent have 10 or fewer trucks. If the one-truck folks tried to unionize, it would actually violate anti-trust laws. Things are far differently now, legally speaking, than back in the day.

And the reason the truckers are complaining about the rest break - they kept telling the feds they needed flexibility in the regulations in order to take a break when tired or otherwise in need of one.

Instead, the feds now REQUIRE a break that has to be taken at specific points in the trucker's schedule (or they have to take two in a day). If they are not tired, they must still break later. If they are tired later, there are financial disincentives to take another (For example, during that time, they are not paid a dime.)

In fact, truckers on average perform more than 30 hours of work a week that they are not paid for (on top of driving). Most of that time is not breaks; it's loading and unloading the truck, inspecting the truck before running, maintaining the truck, fueling the truck. Not only are they not paid for that - many companies require the trucker to pay people who work there to unload the freight into that company's warehouse.

The truckers asked the feds to do something about that - and the feds ignored it.

Most truckers are professionals - they don't do this crap that's contained in the stereotype. But of course, stereotypes are easy, and don't require messy things like research or getting your facts straight. Just look at someone's FAQ without questioning whether it's accurate, and go on your way.

These are the facts. I'm sorry if someone doesn't like them or they're not convenient and supportive of what you already think and want to have confirmed. But they are, nonetheless, reality.
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  OwlreallyKCguy62
  7/04/13 12:49am
  You are somewhat full of it. How many OTR drivers load and unload their own loads? Where I worked when I was 19, we (as in the people working at the facility) loaded and unloaded the trucks. Where I work now, we load and unload the trucks. When my truck drivers work hauling equipment, they are on the clock and thus are getting paid for loading and unloading. A friend of mine who has done local and countrywide hauling, guess how many times he has loaded and unloaded? Zero. Or how I hear the various drivers I have worked with over the years talk about the lie books, the drug use and driving trucks that needed various repairs? Oh yeah, how about the new regs about having to use hands free and seeing truckers driving with one hand and talking/texting/doing various things on their cell with the other? Or how about the one week here around Nashville where the interstate was blocked three times because a truck driver rolled their rig and it was their own fault? I'm not saying you are totally wrong, but you live in a perfect world where the trucker does little wrong. When money is the motivation, expect bad behaviors to develop.
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  KCguy62Owlreally
  7/23/13 6:37pm
  I'm glad to hear some folks are in trucking situations where they do not do the freight loading/unloading. But in the wider trucking community, that is not the case most of the time. It is well documented and common knowledge among over the road truckers. You have two facilities and one trucker - I can give you hundreds of each where the situation you describe simply does not exist. As far as loading and unloading, for most truckers, If they do not do it themselves, they most often are compelled to pay someone else to load or unload the truck - it's called lumping, a term enshrined in federal regulation, which refers to the fact that in the old times, when truckers refused to pay, they were given a few "lumps" to encourage them to pony up the money. As far as drug use, check the federal stats - it's simply not a big cause of problems in the industry. As far as cell phone use, I have seen that as well, but the overwhelming majority are responsible folks and don't do that. And yes, I've heard of log books being falsified, although I know many others who simply will not do that. And yes, some trucks have accidents; in fact, quite a number do. Although federal statistics show - as I said earlier - that 75 percent of the time, that trucker is not at fault. The rollover may be a good example of a trucker who never received proper training - which is a concern, since there is not requirement that truckers have so much as one minute training behind the wheel before taking to the road. I do not live in a perfect world - I'm hardly that naive. Believe me, I know there are problems in trucking. But overall, truckers are about the safest people on the road. I sure as heck would rather share the road with them than a bunch of speed-obssessed teen-agers, just as one example. Truckers want to get home at the end of the day to their families - it's the ultimate incentive for safe driving. And the ones who fake the books, use the cell or text and all that crap - they usually wash out - which is maybe one reason the industry turnover rate runs well above 100 percent in most years. That portion of the industry that turns over faster than laundry in a Kenmore clothes washer is the problem - not the long-term folks, many of whom have driven milllions of miles without causing an accident. Does the industry's money situation disincentivize the good behavior? Yes. The solution is not likely to be crack down more on the drivers who are already badly treated and underpaid. If low pay incentivizes bad behavior, how about paying them a decent, living wage? Wow - that would be a cool idea indeed.
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showbiz2Hamilton Nolan
7/03/13 11:47am
You really want the roads safer? Knock it down to 50 hours, with mandatory drug tests before the vehicle can start. The ones that don't do amphetamines of some kind won't care.

The ones that do complain are exactly the ones that shouldn't be on the road.

Yes, go ahead and dig in with right to privacy, I don't give a shit. If you are operating a vehicle of any kind, but especially that size, there should be checks and balances. Period.
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  GolfTDIshowbiz2
  7/04/13 9:15am
  You must be a desk jokey. Your statement implies that your suggested drug testing device be installed in your personal vehicle.
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  showbiz2GolfTDI
  7/04/13 11:32am
  Honestly, I don't even have a problem with that. Install them in all vehicles. If someone tells me that installing a breathalyzer or taking a quick pee test infringes on their liberties, I would show them pictures of what a drunk driver can do. Graphic pictures.
  
  I can't for the life of me think of one reason why someone should be allowed to inebriate and drive. Period. And if a trucker needs to pop pills to stay awake, then that person should not be on the road. Period.
  
  If making it so that an impaired driver doesn't kill a sister, parent, brother, cousin, distant relative means that I have to breath into a little machine to start my car, then I seriously don't have a problem with it.
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Bruno MartiniHamilton Nolan
7/03/13 12:42pm
I never understood people complaining about unsafe truckers. I drive in NYC for Christ sakes, where any sane human being driving something that large would loose his mind. Even under these conditions 99% of truckers are composed. The only bastards on the roads driving large vehicles are soccer moms and occasional delivery box truck....

Let me put it this way. An elephant is a large gentle creature until you fuck with it. Same with a truck. They do not fuck with you unless you put yourself in a position to endanger truckers. Let these guys be, they have a very hard job, harder than anyone can believe. Most of these guys are decent human beings as well, if they see you speeding and are coming on the opposite side they will flash for cops, they will warn you of danger on the roads, and probably stop for you to help you out if you had a crash. Drive around them whenever possible safely and do not interfere with their flow. Most of these guys are on the 1mph role when passing. Be patient and avoid them. I fear almost any motorist on the road more than I do a big rig. I can guarantee any motorist who bad mouths truckers expects them to react like a 4 door sedan or they fuck with truckers, I have seen it on the road many times. Its physically impossible for a large truck to accelerate, stop and handle like a car. Carrying 50-100tones and having an engine that makes anywhere between 400-600hp is the power to weight ratio of a turtle.
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