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BuffyismyhomosapienAnna Merlan
6/20/16 4:49pm
Yeah, this is a tough one. On the one hand, if he’s following recs from the probation dept., then getting rid of him may send a message to the department that these guidelines/ sentencing recs are not okay. But like the defense attorneys say, who will it ultimately hurt to impose a different kind of mandatory, extra-harsh minimum? At the same time, the stats for lying about rape are so low, I’m not inclined to say that harsher sentences is a bad thing? On the other (I’ve got a lot of...) hand(s), prison doesn’t reform, so we’re just sending rapists away for a while. (on the last hand, is that so bad?). Is it bad that I just feel good that Turner got a sentence? I mean, I know why everyone was upset, I totally get why it was unfair and “rape culture/ white privilege” at work, but on the other, we so rarely even see this that I guess I am like, “we got something”. ugh. this whole thing is a mess, but then again (no hands), the details from the night do not show some kind of drunken foolishness that quickly turned into a question of consent; brock turner is a rapist and, as the victim said (paraphrasing here), if this is how he started out his freshman year at his first party, like, he was probably going to keep doing that. It was ridiculously predatory. So yeah, fuck him? Fuck Persky? FUCK THE WORLD??
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  burner362Buffyismyhomosapien
  6/20/16 5:58pm
  The probation department in Santa Clara County is answerable to the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisor. So the pressue should also be on the 5 county supervisors. They can purge and clean house at the probation department. That will automaticly impact the recommendations being sent to all almost 100 judicial officers in the county.
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  Firefly75burner362
  6/20/16 7:15pm
  What are the stats for lying about rape? I know there are studies that show convictions stemming from false allegations of rape are available, but relying on them to gauge the actual number of false rape allegations is like using only conviction rates to determine the number of rapes that occur.
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ad infinitumAnna Merlan
6/20/16 4:09pm
I don’t think we should focus on Persky (or Turner, for that matter) to the exclusion of everything else, but in the same way Persky’s sentence sent a strong message to rapists everywhere (“Don’t worry, white boys, even if you are caught in the act of raping an unconscious person by multiple witness, the justice system has your back!”), recalling Persky would send a strong message to judges that letting rapists off with a slap on the wrist because boys will boys might have a negative effect on their career. (Not to mention that it means Persky won’t be able to excuse any more rapists because he doesn’t think it’s fair that they should have to face negative consequences for a little thing like raping someone.)

The reaction to the entire Turner case has definitely been outsized, but I’m more than OK with that — a whole lot of people are realizing for the first time exactly what we mean when we talk about rape culture, and that the concept really isn’t just something feminists made up. If even just a tiny fraction of these people remember this the next time they hear a rape victim blamed and a rapist excused (or the next time they sit on a jury for a sexual assault case), that’s an enormous good.
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  Dunlinad infinitum
  6/20/16 4:19pm
  Exactly. He can point to his 13 years of other decisions and say “see, I’m a good and responsible judge” and we can say “see, this is why we have a point, because if you’re the example of a good and reasonable judge, THESE assumptions about rape and punishment are what need to change with the culture at large.”
  
  He’s not being challenged for his seat, so it’s doubtful his position is really at risk, especially given that he’s got his own defenders. But it’s important to point to this decision, to point to these comments about it, and say “that is not okay.” And have that be taken seriously.
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  pH unbalancedad infinitum
  6/20/16 4:40pm
  The other thing causing outrage is that the case being sentenced right before this one was a domestic violence case where Persky sentenced the abuser to a literal weekend in jail
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VeitAnna Merlan
6/20/16 4:05pm
Rather than using robotic, one size fits all punishment schemes, we want judges, like Judge Persky, to engage in thoughtful, case by case, individualized determinations of the appropriate sentence for a particular crime and particular offender

But how do they not see Persky’s decision as an abject failure to make a thoughtful determination? That fool saw this well-to-do white kid with major athletic aspirations, and treated him the way we treat all rich white athletic offenders: as if they haven’t committed any crime at all. We don’t need robotic one-size-fits-all punishment schemes, but the solution to that isn’t judges like Persky.

It’s not like we have to pick between either a draconian society of mass incarceration, or a society of racist rape apologia. These are not the only options on the fucking table here.
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  theresthisVeit
  6/20/16 4:16pm
  And as the Nate Parker/Jean Celestin rape case has shown, a slap on the wrist punishment for rape doesn’t necessarily stop someone from having a successful career. So it’s not like someone’s future will suffer much even with a rape conviction.
  
  http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/100014495.html
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  Inside jokeVeit
  6/20/16 4:40pm
  I think the Turner sentence is a travesty. That said, I do see tension in the demand that high profile bad criminals get stiff sentences and the desire to reduce mass incarceration, which is driven by stiff sentences handed out to low profile bad criminals.
  
  When a defendant gets convicted of something like possession with intent to distribute or even robbery and battery, 99% of the time those defendants have a longer history of bad behavior than Turner.
  
  Ta-Nahisi Coates has talked about how there’s this liberal delusion that we can reduce mass incarceration by freeing non-violent drug defendants. That’s not the case. If you want to meaningful reduce prision populations, you have to start letting people who do genuinely bad things, like armed robbery, our of prison earlier. Does that extend to rapists? I think that’s a point worth of a spirited debate, because as soon as “rape is especially heinous” is used as a justification for anti-criminal justice reform, it opens the door to “selling drugs to school kids is especially heinous,” and pretty soon, we’re just back to touch on crime.
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SourSghettiAnna Merlan
6/20/16 4:39pm
THANK YOU for this. As somebody who cares deeply about criminal justice reform and ending mass incarceration, but who also recognizes and is abhorred by rape culture, I have felt like I couldn’t properly convey my feeling about this Persky backlash.

What progressive-minded people want for sexual assault prosecution reform is in direct opposition to what they want to see change in the criminal justice system overall (minimizing sentences, encouraging prosecutors to refrain from charging for misdemeanor crimes, ending racist sentencing that is based on draconian sentencing laws, ending public input on judge placement and removal...). I am unwilling to move backward in criminal justice reform for the sake of crimes that only take up a small percentage of prosecutions nationwide. Our efforts in re: ending rape culture and victim backlash are better directed elsewhere. Encouraging maximum sentences and ruthless prosecution across the board is a REALLY REALLY BAD THING and in direct opposition of progressive ideals.
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  BlessedAreTheHedas. Our fight is not over.SourSghetti
  6/20/16 5:11pm
  Except no one is encouraging maximum sentences and ruthless prosecution across the board. People want judges to stop handing out lenient sentences to rapists because they don’t want to ruin their futures, because they consistently show more empathy and sympathy for those rapists than they do for their victims. Rapists belong in prison, no matter how promising a future they had.
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  SourSghettiBlessedAreTheHedas. Our fight is not over.
  6/20/16 6:27pm
  Fair enough. I guess my concern is that this will set a precedent that with enough political influence, we can remove judges from the bench when they do things we don’t like. This concerns me because the majority (or at least the vocal minority) of Americans still think that we should lock the door and throw away the key for almost ALL convicted individuals. What’s to stop an anti-drug organization from attempting to remove judges who don’t dole out harsh sentences for drug crimes?
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benjaminalloverAnna Merlan
6/20/16 4:14pm
This culture of mass incarceration has so shaped our minds that when a judge, like Judge Persky in this case, undertakes a holistic sentencing analysis that accounts for both the victim and the convicted, we still insist on arbitrary, lengthy terms of incarceration as the response to crime.

Absolute bullshit. Holistic? Try unjustifiably blind to the victim, public safety, and justice, for the sake of considering the impact on the convicted rapist alone. This is not about mass incarceration, or sentencing that is “draconian” or “robotic” it is about the fact that this judge has demonstrated that his “discretion” has yielded a result that is unacceptable to our society.
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  BIMming Itbenjaminallover
  6/20/16 4:18pm
  To be fair, I think there is a recognizable gap between 3 months and an ‘arbitrary, lengthy term of incarceration”. If the kid got 3 years, I doubt people would be as outraged. I also don’t think it would have been as big of a problem if the rapist seemed even remotely remorseful for his actions.
  
  Basically, the rapist doesn’t seem like he’s learned anything nor does his attitude about sexual assault appear to be changed. If the purpose of the justice system is reform, you would think that 3 months may not be enough time to reform an unrepentant rapist.
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  benjaminalloverBIMming It
  6/20/16 4:24pm
  Besides allowing time for reform, a convict’s complete refusal to acknowledge what he did let alone show remorse- this is supposed to be considered in his sentencing. Instead of considering this grounds for a harsher sentence, the judge basically takes the word of the probation officer, who believes Turner’s version of events!!!!!!!
  
  Persky’s sentence followed the recommendations of a probation officer, although the judge’s comments in court were what sparked much of the backlash. “A prison sentence would have a severe impact on him. I think he will not be a danger to others,” he said. And, on Turner’s version of events (namely his claim that he didn’t rape an unconscious woman behind a dumpster): “I take him at his word that subjectively that’s his version of his events. … I’m not convinced that his lack of complete acquiescence to the verdict should count against him.”
  
  What the everloving fuck is that? Is that status quo? Guess what: I don’t care: it is bullshit, and unacceptable.
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SeraphSwordAnna Merlan
6/20/16 4:16pm
The problems around mass incarceration stem from the tremendous number of people imprisoned for victimless crime (often drug related). I think rape is one of those crimes where we are fine with throwing the book at them.
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  DashleyinCaliSeraphSword
  6/20/16 4:44pm
  This. Mandatory minimums for nonviolent drug crimes is a phenomenon that has ruined countless lives and entire communities. Saying “gee, if we adequately punish people for rape, there will be more people in prison, and we have too many people in prison already, remember?” is such a false equivalence it makes my head spin.
  
  Rape is a violent crime and should be prosecuted on the level of other violent crimes, like murder and kidnapping. To loop in the problems with nonviolent crime sentencing just serves to muddle the issue and delay justice for rape victims present and future.
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  SourSghettiSeraphSword
  6/20/16 4:46pm
  Actually, drug-related convictions make up a smaller portion of the prison population than you’d think. Minimizing sentences for drug crimes is indeed important, but drawing the hard line at victim/victimless won’t end the mass incarceration problem (i.e. simple assault is no a victimless crime).
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GreenwoodsnakeAnna Merlan
6/20/16 4:14pm
Good analysis. However, as the article pointed out, it isn’t so much the lenient sentence that got this guy in hot water, it was his statements expressing sympathy for the rapist and almost ZERO for the victim. His mentality on this issue is what clearly makes him unfit to sit on these types of cases. And if he has to be selectively handed cases where he can’t/won’t judge with bias than he cannot be a valuable judge at all.

And the analogy above by Sajid Khan is total B.S.!! Sorry but somehow I cannot equate the argument against unnecessary mass incarceration with unnecessary mandatory prison term for rape.
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  theresthisGreenwoodsnake
  6/20/16 4:20pm
  “Good analysis. However, as the article pointed out, it isn’t so much the lenient sentence that got this guy in hot water, it was his statements expressing sympathy for the rapist and almost ZERO for the victim.”
  
  This judge has also made problematic rulings in other cases involving violence against women.
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kingwolfAnna Merlan
6/20/16 4:19pm
Hot take without reading the post: It would probably set an example so that judges are less likely to be lenient on rapists in future cases.
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  Darklighterkingwolf
  6/20/16 4:58pm
  The message you think you’re sending is not always the message that is received.
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Gwyneth P. is a reincarnated chicken nuggetAnna Merlan
6/20/16 5:43pm
I am shocked that finally a large scale, national outcry & response to rape culture is taking place and the questioned being asked is if we should do something. Didn’t see this article coming.
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Non Sleeping GiantAnna Merlan
6/20/16 4:32pm
This is the second Jez article in a few days that has left me completely bewildered. This seems like such a strange angle to take.
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  Gwyneth P. is a reincarnated chicken nuggetNon Sleeping Giant
  6/20/16 7:03pm
  Amen.
  
  Also, let us never forget the sympathetic article about the deadbeat dad who refused to get a real job and pay child support.
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