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StAgnesHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 1:58pm
“He sent the message at 6:25 p.m., then told his mother he was leaving the house to visit a friend and not to expect him home for dinner. He made a short drive to a remote corner of the Fairhaven Kmart parking lot. At 6:28 p.m., he called Carter and talked to her for 43 minutes. At 7:12, she called him. The call lasted 47 minutes. During that conversation, as the cab of his the truck filled with gas fumes, Roy decided to get out, Carter later told a friend. In a message she probably didn’t expect to ever become public, she wrote: “I fucken told him to get back in.”

Yeah, that girl is a psychopath.
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  The Real JanelleStAgnes
  3/01/16 2:07pm
  She’s a fucking asshole. I’m sorry for her own mental health, but that doesn’t excuse all the horrible things she did.
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  WonderZimmsThe Real Janelle
  3/01/16 2:14pm
  Actually, her mental health could completely excuse what she did. We don’t know yet: we’ll have to wait for more information. Should she be found to have mental problems, then she would need therapy and institutionalization, none of which makes her “a fucking asshole” and all of which would make her a flawed human being.
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clockworkandcameosHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 1:57pm
Living in Massachusetts, I have been following the case since her arrest and what she did was seriously messed up.

She is a horrible person, there is no room for argument about that, I’m sorry.

She has no remorse for what she did, even after he committed suicide her main concern was if the police would come after her. If you're worried the police are going to come after you, then obviously your actions were bad and you are away that they were bad.
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  fnsfsnrclockworkandcameos
  3/01/16 2:05pm
  When one person bullies another into suicide using social media and other means, people in general agree they should be culpable. This woman’s actions would seem to be pretty the same, the only issue is whether she has an insanity defense. From an intent perspective, she clearly intended her boyfriend to harm himself, whether or not she ultimately felt he would be “better off” or something is not relevant.
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  Detroit 68clockworkandcameos
  3/01/16 2:05pm
  It seems like she understands that what she was doing was fucked up and that it had legal consequences, so I’m not sure how her mental state is relevant here from a legal perspective.
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whatever-screen-nameHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 1:54pm
I remember reading the details of this a few months back and thinking, “What in all the fucks?”

That response hasn’t really changed.
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  whatever-screen-namewhatever-screen-name
  3/01/16 1:55pm
  Also, those aren’t even the most damning texts.
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  Surfboard2121whatever-screen-name
  3/01/16 2:01pm
  Yup therr were way worse texts than the ones posted above. This case totally terrified me becsuse it reminded me pure evil really does exist.
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KatMarloweHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 2:14pm
There is a lot to unpack here.

This story reminds me a little of this case of a mother who killed all her children because she enjoyed the attention and support that she received after their deaths.

Here, she encourages her boyfriend to kill himself — perhaps satisfying her own suicidal ideation by proxy. Then, after his death, she receives a wave of support from friends and family. Perhaps gaining all the attention she’s always craved but was never able to draw to herself.

In summary, this case is all sorts of fucked up.

*This has been Armchair Psychologist with Dr. KatMarlowe*
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  darleeeeeene aka deraaiilleeeeeeneKatMarlowe
  3/01/16 2:31pm
  Especially if she’s had a history of depression/suicidal ideation...this makes a lot of sense to me.
  
  *sitting on the floor next to the armchair psychologist*
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  RIGmarolerKatMarlowe
  3/01/16 2:36pm
  Exactly my thoughts as well.
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fondue processHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 2:00pm
While I think she did terrible things... I can’t get behind putting her anywhere other than a mental care facility. How incredibly disturbing all around.

ETA: holy shit, the teenage psyche is just so complicated and crazy and I don’t know how any of us made it out and became semi-functioning sort-of adults.
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  AvaSilverfondue process
  3/01/16 2:16pm
  ETA: holy shit, the teenage psyche is just so complicated and crazy and I don’t know how any of us made it out and became semi-functioning sort-of adults.
  
  Most of us weren’t psychopaths like this horrible bitch. I would have never thought to do this when I was a teenager because I wasn’t an unfeeling beast like this girl.
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  darleeeeeene aka deraaiilleeeeeenefondue process
  3/01/16 2:27pm
  I honestly have NO IDEA what I think about all of this.
  
  But I agree with you. It’s a fucking miracle we all survived being teenagers...
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HarvestMoonHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 2:08pm
My first response was wanting to kill this manipulative monster. But as I read the article I realized that a teenager with her own mental illness could go off the rails of reason if her boyfriend had spent years telling her that suicide was what he really wanted.

But yeah, still seems pretty monstrous.

“He has released only a few texts to support his version of the story, but he says the larger body of the messages show a confused teenage girl struggling to help her severely depressed boyfriend. A few weeks before Roy’s death, he said Carter wrote to Roy: “I need to know that you’re okay and that you aren’t gonna do anything.” A few days later, she added, “I’m sorry what I’ve been doing isn’t enough. You know I’m trying my absolute hardest.” According to Cataldo, Roy wrote back, “You don’t understand. I want to die!”

“Carter’s mental-health issues played a role in what transpired between them. “This case is about two unstable teenagers, one of whom was very suicidal and the other that had no clue how to handle the situation,” she said. “I think Michelle went through stages of handling Conrad; first, she tried really hard to change his mind; then, she felt she couldn’t convince him so she resorted to something she found on the internet to comply with his plans; and finally, I think she started to realize the longer the plans went on that Conrad was really going to go through with it,” she said. “I truly believe that Michelle was delusional about Conrad’s situation.”
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  BSTrainerHarvestMoon
  3/01/16 2:12pm
  Except for the fact that in the lead-up to the death she tried to make sure he deleted the texts where she goaded him on, and afterward she was worried she would get arrested. That indicates to me that she fully realized that what she was doing was wrong and illegal. If she was just a confused young girl who thought she was doing what was right, it wouldn’t have occurred to her to try to cover her tracks after-the-fact.
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  AwkwardbossHarvestMoon
  3/01/16 2:21pm
  Yes, it will all come down to if she is found to have been mentally ill at the time or not. Sort of reminds me of the Vincent Li case here in Canada. Dude was found not criminally responsible for a violent beheading eight years ago and is now living freely on his own under supervision. If her legal defense can try to prove she was not in her right mind or believed it all to be fantasy I’m sure she can get off or with a ligt sentence, but hopefully that won’t be the case as she seemd to know exactly what she was doing (I’m no mental health expert though).
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CassiopeiaSDHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 4:25pm
Just so we’re all clear: Knowing the consequences of your actions is not the same as knowing that your actions are wrong. I’m willing to bet we all have something that we know we’d be punished for but that we don’t think is morally wrong. Personally, I speed and watch pirated content and drink while fertile. Almost everyone who is suicidal knows that what they’re contemplating is illegal, and many of them also think it’s morally right (for them). The fact that she knew the police would be after her does not, in any way, indicate that she knew it was morally wrong.

None of this is to say this girl isn’t a monster: she might be, and if she was of sound mind then she certainly is. But just knowing consequences doesn’t indicate that.
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  ShayduCassiopeiaSD
  3/01/16 6:18pm
  I don’t understand your point. If you’re trying to say she could mount a successful insanity defense even though she understood the consequences of her actions because she did not believe her actions were “morally wrong,” you’re completely wrong about that.
  
  People caught speeding can’t get out of the ticket by telling the judge they don’t think speeding is “morally wrong.” In this case, the girl might have thought convincing her boyfriend to commit suicide was the ‘right thing to do,’ but that’s not enough to avoid a guilty verdict.
  
  She could only be found not guilty by reason of insanity if the jury finds that as a result of mental disease or defect she lacked substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality or wrongfulness of her conduct, or to conform her conduct to the requirements of law. If she understood convincing him to kill himself was a criminal act and could refrain from convincing him, she won’t be found NGI.
  
  If you’re not talking about a potential insanity defense and just want to point out she can understand the consequences of her actions but still believe she’s in the right... I guess that’s true, but so what?
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  CassiopeiaSDShaydu
  3/01/16 6:51pm
  Many people are saying “she knew it was illegal, therefore she knew it was wrong, therefore the insanity defense cannot apply.” I’m just trying to point out that this logic doesn’t follow: understanding what is legal does not mean you understand right and wrong.
  
  She could only be found not guilty by reason of insanity if the jury finds that as a result of mental disease or defect she lacked substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality or wrongfulness of her conduct, or to conform her conduct to the requirements of law.
  
  So I don’t know the legal details, but you gloss over something important here: criminality =/= wrongfulness. Suicidal people often lament failing to actually commit suicide, and for all we know, she could have honestly believed she was helping him to achieve a goal that he couldn’t achieve on his own. Obviously that’s insane, and this is just a hypothetical (I, like basically everyone who isn’t one of her psychologists, do not know why she committed this horrible crime), but it is very easy to imagine a situation in which she “lacked substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct.”
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KendradicalHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 2:02pm
This is so tragic in so many ways. If there is a hell, that girl is definitely going there, but I’m also not so sure that we should be prosecuting people (mentally unstable people and teens in general, especially) for the suicide of another person. I think this is one of those cases where no matter what you do, no matter who is punished or to blame, there are no winners and there is no real justice. What an all around terribly sad story.
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  AllRushIsViolenceKendradical
  3/01/16 2:08pm
  If that boy were my son this girl would be lucky to be sent to prison. None of us are perfectly stable and this girl knew what she was doing in spite of her own issues. There are much worse texts to dig up than what is posted above.
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  BSTrainerKendradical
  3/01/16 2:08pm
  This is definitely one of those grey areas, but I think this sort of thing should be prosecuted. Because smart, manipulative people love to exploit fuzzy grey areas. This seems like a dangerous girl who wanted to hurt someone, but was smart enough to realize she would be far less likely to suffer consequences if she managed to convince the person to hurt themselves.
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SourSghettiHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 1:57pm
Oh man. I really hope the prosecutor gets a fair and credible mental health assessment done before deciding to move forward with a trial or even plea negotiations.

If she is mentally ill, throwing her in jail will not do her or society any good. Mass incarceration is not the answer!
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  HappyHighwaymanSourSghetti
  3/01/16 2:02pm
  Mental illness doesn’t get you off crime if you still know right from wrong.
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  hamwinkySourSghetti
  3/01/16 2:02pm
  ughhhhIagreethroughgrittedteeth!!!
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QuanYinHillary Crosley Coker
3/01/16 2:53pm
I’ve been watching this case develop since the story broke. Her defense amounts to a First Amendment argument, which is... interesting... The juvenile court denied the defense’s motion to dismiss based on the First Amendment argument, and the case is docketed with the SJC (the highest court here in MA). My crim. pro. professor is a MA SJC Justice, and I can’t wait until it’s over so he can talk about it. From a Con. Law standpoint, it’s potentially a big deal.

ETA for any other law geeks...

https://www.scribd.com/doc/277779704/...
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  janie's got a pacifist screen nameQuanYin
  3/01/16 4:06pm
  Wait, there’s no statutory definition of manslaughter in MA? I’ll be darned. Why not? How many other states rely on common law to define manslaughter? Thanks for sharing these docs. I’m still working my way through the defense’s motion. I really want to get a handle on their argument, but I need to set it aside for a while and read something pleasant.
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  QuanYinjanie's got a pacifist screen name
  3/01/16 7:43pm
  Yeah... getting through the statement of facts was tough. I haven’t delved too deeply into the rest yet, but I wish I could find a copy of the defense’s motion to dismiss. I think that would shed some light. I think the reason nothing is published on Westlaw is that the preliminaries were done in juvenile court. I have a professor who is an SJC Justice, and I know he won’t be able to answer questions until the case is over, but I’m dying to get his take on it.
  
  Massachusetts is so weird in that way. A lot of our law is still common law because of the way things evolved from English law. Almost all of the MA property law I studied (and HATED...) is 17th century feudal common law. I guess the legislature has been like, “It ain’t broke... let’s not fix it!” Even a lot of the statutory language is totally Puritanical. Lots of references to “unnatural sexual relations” as distinguished from “natural sexual relations.” The only other state I know of that seems to totally go its own way is Louisiana, because most of its laws came directly from France. I actually find the history and evolution of the law and the cultural context in which it all came to be as it is to be far more interesting than the law itself...
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