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    GrizzlyAdamsBeardHamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 1:45pm

    What would be the cause of the relative success Hispanic immigrants have had compared to African Americans despite the comparably more disadvantaged starting point? My gut reaction is work ethic, but that's probably not necessarily PC. Are there other theories?

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      SpangarangGrizzlyAdamsBeard
      1/25/16 1:48pm

      Hispanics look more white?

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      EvelynChampagneKingsnumberonefanGrizzlyAdamsBeard
      1/25/16 1:49pm

      African immigrants and Haitians and whatnot also do a lot better than African Americans too and whites as well if we are being honest.

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    MiniatureamericanflagsforothersHamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 1:50pm

    But, from one of TNC’s earlier pieces:

    “Indeed. Liberals who believe they can fool racists by changing the subject from racism to class underestimate the intelligence of their audience. “All that it would take to sink a new WPA program would be some skillfully packaged footage of black men leaning on shovels smoking cigarettes,” writes sociologist Douglass Massey. “Papering over the issue of race makes for bad social theory, bad research and bad public policy.””

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archi…

    Radicals should tear down racism first, classism second, because that’s the only way it’ll ever happen in America. Sanders has it precisely backwards.

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      hntergrenMiniatureamericanflagsforothers
      1/25/16 2:03pm

      Agreed, but his is still the best agenda out there right now. This is why I was appalled that liberals were so appalled by BLM protests at Sanders’ rallies.

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      burlivesleftnutMiniatureamericanflagsforothers
      1/25/16 2:07pm

      How? I believe in reparations, but how would that be accomplished without making the racial divide in this country worse than it is? How would blacks suddenly flush with money not suffer from the same predators that are ripping apart their economy right now? Not trying to be argumentative, btw. I really want to know how.

      Personally, I don’t believe racism will subside until whites see blacks as their economic equals. Fixing the racial wealth gap would go along way towards accomplishing that. It seems like radical rhetoric about reparations at this point in American history is only going to enrage racists to a degree that would be more dangerous than what we have now. I’m all for it, but how do we get there?

      Personally, I say we need to be able to look at all races as economic equals before we can discuss reparations without the nation flipping the fuck out. But what I know couldn’t fill a thimble.

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    Rowen (Paid Politcal Shill)Hamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 1:51pm

    Both are serious issues and need to be addressed, but Sandra Bland wasn’t arrested and abused and killed because she was poor.

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      KrugerrantRowen (Paid Politcal Shill)
      1/25/16 1:57pm

      HamNo left out the important part from Coates’ latest piece on the problems with a class-first approach:

      There is no need to be theoretical about this. Across Europe, the kind of robust welfare state Sanders supports—higher minimum wage, single-payer health-care, low-cost higher education—has been embraced. Have these policies vanquished racism? Or has race become another rubric for asserting who should benefit from the state’s largesse and who should not? And if class-based policy alone is insufficient to banish racism in Europe, why would it prove to be sufficient in a country founded on white supremacy?

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      Rowen (Paid Politcal Shill)Krugerrant
      1/25/16 2:01pm

      That seems pretty damn spot on.

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    puncha yo bunsHamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 1:54pm

    Uhhh, I’m a black person who’s not currently getting screwed by anybody, so thanks for reminding me of that, HamNo.

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      This corn is special, Isn't it?puncha yo buns
      1/25/16 1:59pm

      Sure you are. The nice white man knows what's best here. Stop resisting. He feels your pain.

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      BobbySeriouspuncha yo buns
      1/25/16 2:00pm

      Well that’s all that matters....that you are doing well.

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    youhavenoselfawarenessdumbfuckHamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 1:46pm

    Why are Asians always left out of your analyses, apart from the uncomfortable fact that they punch a hole in your thesis as big as a boat?

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      BobbySeriousyouhavenoselfawarenessdumbfuck
      1/25/16 1:56pm

      Probably because the history of Asian immigration has absolutely nothing to do with the plight of the descendants of African slaves?

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      BKTexanBobbySerious
      1/25/16 2:02pm

      Hamilton’s argument here states that racism and poverty are intermingled. Asians went through very tough times (Ghettos in SF, WWII, etc) and have managed to come out on top. It’s a perfectly valid question that Hamilton fails to address.

      There could be a learning here - what have Asians done that allow them to transcend the racism they faced and be the highest earning segment of the US?

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    JunkeezHamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 2:02pm

    Coates made some good points and I do enjoy his writing, and in full disclosure I support Sanders, but how can anyone say they support something (in this case reparations) when no one has defined what that thing is? How can any candidate escape Coates scrutiny when he has never said what he means by reparations? In fact, any candidate can just agree and say “Yes i support reparations” when in fact they support reparations only in the form of Starburst candies.

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      slevin kelveraJunkeez
      1/25/16 2:26pm

      Coates is smart in not defining what reparations would look like because as soon as you do it’ll become a divided issue. First off, how do you decide who deserves repartitions? That’s a logistical nightmare in of itself. Second say if every appropriate family receives 30 grand, where does that money come from? From tax payers? A ton of people would have a problem with that and would reason why am I responsible for something that occurred during my great-great-great-great-great grandparents time.

      IMO repartations for slavery is a pipe dream and would be a waste of valuable time and resources that could be dedicated to other racial causes.

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      Junkeezslevin kelvera
      1/25/16 2:38pm

      How can anyone be legitimately upset with a politician who doesn’t support something they can’t or refuse to define?

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    Dave Hamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 1:50pm

    I keep trying to understand if my own rejection of reparations is reason or racism. It’s not a fun argument to have with myself, I would hate to face it on a campaign.

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      youcuntseemeDave
      1/25/16 1:58pm

      I reject reparations because other than to tell me they should occur, no one can tell me how it would work. Want to just take money out of my paycheck or something? Give me a real plan and you can have it.

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      ARP2youcuntseeme
      1/25/16 2:46pm

      Then you have all sorts of complications.

      Why should new immigrants pay for something they had nothing to do with? Should a mixed race (e.g. AA and whit) person pay or receive, or do they cancel each other out? I’m 25% Native American, can I pay less? What about companies? Do they pay, or do we just go after the stock/assets of the owners? How do you establish a claim? So much has been lost to history.

      ...and this is how these sorts of ideas are destroyed. Americans are so enamored with “fairness” that if one person is unfairly treated by a program, we’d rather scrap it than fix it or simply recognize that there will be some unfair results, but on the whole, it creates a more fair result.

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    FlazloHamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 2:10pm

    If the “fix” ignores the racism that is at the core of the racial wealth gap, it will be applied with that racism baked in.

    Less so now as in, say, the 1930s, 40s, and 50s, before the era of legal racial discrimination ended. But you’ll notice that the disparity in outcomes between black people and white people continues in spite of fixes like the New Deal and The Great Society.

    We have to engage the reality of racism in this country in order to address it. I think Coates is right to criticize Sanders on this.

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      jroberts548Flazlo
      1/25/16 2:20pm

      The New Deal and Great Society programs were designed specifically to expand the racial wealth gap. Sanders’ class-first approach, as long as it isn’t actively racist, will still be a step in the right direction relative to what we have now and what we had then.

      I think Coates is still right to criticize Sanders on this, and I would like for Sanders to be more explicitly race-oriented in his proposals, but I also would like for Coates to go after targets with a history of actively making things worse for the poor and for minorities (like the Clintons).

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      Flazlojroberts548
      1/25/16 3:14pm

      I think he expects something more courageous from Sanders, as opposed to Clinton - as do I.

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    ReburnsABurningReturnsHamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 2:03pm

    It would certainly be healthy for America’s soul to have a debate about reparations in the mainstream dialogue.

    I think it would be a symptom of better health if we could have one. Would it be healthy now? Naw. Mainstream America isn’t ready for that. It wouldn’t be bad, per se, but it wouldn’t be helpful.

    What I do not understand however is how Bernie Sanders could say this:

    First of all, its likelihood of getting through Congress is nil. Second of all, I think it would be very divisive.

    About reparations specifically, seeing as most of his policy platform that he says differentiates him from Clinton faces the exact same problems.

    The Republicans will laugh at him to his face if he tries to get his healthcare proposals through Congress as it stands right now. They’ll do the same thing with his desires for the tax code. Remember that weed bill he proposed in November? *crickets*

    Bernie Sanders’ entire platform of policies he intends to propose to Congress is the very definition of a group of policies that have zero chance of getting through Congress and that would be very divisive, but he wants to bitch about reparations?

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      grizzle_grizzleReburnsABurningReturns
      1/25/16 2:27pm

      bernie can’t come out for reparations w/o alienating the working class whites that he will need to take the election.

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      ReburnsABurningReturnsgrizzle_grizzle
      1/25/16 2:32pm

      So what you’re saying is that Bernie is lying to black people so he can get elected and then he will come out and add reparations to his policy platform that already will not get through Congress and would also make it harder for him to win in the general election?

      Wat.

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    Vanguard KnightHamilton Nolan
    1/25/16 1:59pm

    I implore other readers not to take the bait and elevate trolls out of the greys. You can see the vitriolic responses starting already below.

    My own father was an immigrant in the late 60s, but he had the advantage that he was privileged in his own country: had highly sought after skills (finishing carpenter-Mouldings, doors, etc) and had a pool of wealth to build on. So despite the fact he was denied business loans, FHA loans, and constantly steered to bad neighborhoods he excelled and I benefit from his success.

    Most American Blacks didn’t have that benefit, and history tells us that at any time in American History when Blacks began to create a wealth base, WHITE MEN WOULD BAND TOGETHER TO DESTROY IT.

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      Gawquera de Tokers TownVanguard Knight
      1/25/16 2:21pm

      White men tried to kill my g/granddad and his brother. They didn’t want to pay him the $ owed for accounting. The business, the house, the land were stolen.

      If we could have had police protection and access to courts, there’s no telling how huge the business could have become.

      Poor whites aren’t “allies” for a reason.

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      Vanguard KnightGawquera de Tokers Town
      1/25/16 2:25pm

      Don’t get me started.

      I remember many times white people would attempt to underpay or not pay my father. I remember one year we almost lost the house because my father wasn’t paid for a job for over a year after it was completed because we had to wait for a civil judgement.

      Not to mention all the times, police would pull my father over (in a truck, with ladders and tool boxes, and a business name sign on the side) asking what he was doing in wealthy neighborhoods.

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