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    ASnowdenofYesteryearJoanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:06pm

    Is it weird that I feel like this is okay? Like, it should be taught as part of language classes and middle school classes and to everyone everywhere.

    Not that I approve of it being directed towards asylum seekers because racism, but it’s a place to start?

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      Kris-the-Needlessly-DefiantASnowdenofYesteryear
      12/21/15 12:08pm

      I was thinking the same thing, all children everywhere should be taught about consent and respect.

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      ZabellaASnowdenofYesteryear
      12/21/15 12:09pm

      To me, the last paragraph exemplifies why this is a good idea. It seems like they’re going out of their way to avoid saying “your immigrant ways are wrong” and instead are saying “there are the rules here. even if these rules don’t apply where you are from, they apply in Norway.”

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    SqarrJoanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:05pm

    “Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,”

    It’s so fucked up that so many men are taught that by so much of society.

    “Boys will be boys” and all that bullshit.

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      HesterMofetSqarr
      12/21/15 12:09pm

      Agreed. Respecting cultures is one thing, but it should be refused to accept cultural practices that accept the victimization of anyone. That treatment of women is so ingrained in his mind, he feels men cannot control their urges!

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      RARSqarr
      12/21/15 12:15pm

      I never rape the women I see smiling at me. I’m ready for my prize now, Nobel committee.

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    EatBigSeaJoanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:15pm

    It is not forced cultural assimilation to explain that in the new country there are laws, and those laws must be obeyed. Rape is against the law, even if it is of one’s spouse. This does not seem to me to be remotely controversial.

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      Inside jokeEatBigSea
      12/21/15 12:51pm

      I’m not sure that I have a problem with “forced” cultural assimilation that takes the form of mandatory education (exception for aculturating native populations via education of minors).

      If I emigrated to Saudi Arabia, I would think it would be useful to be taught the cultural mores.

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      recidiviciousEatBigSea
      12/21/15 1:06pm

      Right, I’m pretty much totally okay with teaching people that human rights violations are wrong.

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    salihe66Joanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:28pm

    “Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control”

    yeeeeah, it’s really not. It’s really really not, you fucking animal. Stop making men look like asshole pigs.

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      ad infinitumsalihe66
      12/21/15 12:32pm

      That’s what kills me about those types of arguments. They’re so patronizing and belittling of men—it baffles me that more men aren’t furious about it. But I think it’s like the whole “Men are just too stupid to do housework/take care of their children” bit. Yes, it’s terribly sexist, but it’s also extremely beneficial to men, so many if not most of them would really rather not challenge the stereotype.

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      Slow Mutantad infinitum
      12/21/15 12:38pm

      Men are furious about it, its just that most of us aren’t slacking off at work to comment on websites. Fortunately, I don’t have shit to do today, so I hate being lumped in with them. They are animals. End of story.

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    MishaBishaJoanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:22pm

    Having spent a fair bit of time in parts of the world from which these immigrants are coming, I’m cool with this. I was in Pakistan for six weeks, where I was touched, cornered, photographed, and generally sexually harassed every single day, no matter how covered I was. In Oman, I had a group of teenage boys waggle their cocks at me (that’s literally the only way I can describe it - they walked up to me and sort of thrust out their hips and used their hands to waggle their cocks in my general direction). In Jordan I was shot at with a toy gun of some sort that projected something that really stung when it hit me (a pellet gun? bb gun? not sure) and I was also followed and smacked on the butt with a stick several times by the same group of boys. These thing all happened because I’m a Western, non-Muslim woman.

    Here’s a conversation I had repeatedly in Pakistan:

    -Are you married?

    -Yes.

    -Is it a love marriage or an arranged marriage?

    -A love marriage.

    -Want to go out tonight?

    -I’m married!

    -Yes but it’s a love marriage so do you want to go out with me?

    The idea was that if you had a love marriage then you had a dad who let you go out and meet boys which meant you were a whore who was up for anything.

    All of these things were class based, btw. These were very poor people in very poor areas. The wealthy men treated me perfectly well and would not need classes like these. But immigrants from poor, uneducated areas? Absolutely. I’m looking at it as citizenship classes.

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      mandawritesthingsMishaBisha
      12/21/15 12:40pm

      I’m sorry you were treated so poorly! I had a very different experience in Jordan, and I even hitchhiked through some decidedly meh areas, though I was with two American men for that. Were you completely alone? I wasn’t so adventurous alone, but I don’t rank Jordan on my list of being treated shitty while abroad at all. Now Egypt, however....

      Anyway if you’ve ever written about your experiences travelingI’d love to read it. I travel alone as a woman a lot and it's always nice to learn about others doing the same!

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      MelUK (aka kayakgrrl)MishaBisha
      12/21/15 12:50pm

      The UK has been hit by several scandals where several gangs of primarily Asian men groomed and abused young girls, such as occurred in Rotheringham and Oxford. One component of this, particularly in Rotheringham, was that the police didn’t want to seem racist, as the gangs there were primarily of Pakistani origin. As there’s plenty of grooming from home-grown Brits, it’s less race that’s an issue but that they came from a culture that tolerated violence against women. However, it’s very difficult to get people to understand cultural background and race are different things, as they often are connected.

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    Bokbunzajoo1Joanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:06pm

    Can someone offer a similar course for certain members of the GOP?

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      PersonalOfficeChristmasPartyBokbunzajoo1
      12/21/15 12:09pm

      I don’t think Bill Clinton and Joe Biden are part of the GOP

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      Bokbunzajoo1PersonalOfficeChristmasParty
      12/21/15 12:12pm

      You are right! A similar course for members of both parties would do a world of good!

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    chilldivineJoanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:20pm

    I’m for this (with caution). I worked in a Swedish pre-school in a fairly multi-cultural area of Stockholm, and we once had a minor issue when a Dad from a patriarchal society kicked off when he saw his son running around school in a princess dress. (Swedish gender neutrality means not that we don’t have princess dresses, but that we don’t specify which kids they are ‘for’.) When it was explained to him that we hadn’t “dressed his son up” but that he had chosen to (at nearly 5, the kid was able to verify this himself) because all his friends were, the Dad chilled right out and was fine with it. There were a handful of similar situations, and in every last case, a simple explanation of what had actually happened, or a gentle discussion on how things work in Sweden sufficed.

    Cultural sensitivity cannot be at expense of women and girls’ safety, and not at the expense of the great strides countries such as Sweden have made towards gender equality (as imperfect as it still is, they’re streets ahead of the rest of us). My experience has been that new immigrants - contrary to bollocks in right wing press - want to be informed; so many culture clashes happen because of a simple lack of information.

    The only thing I’d add is that the information has to get through to the women too. I had a colleague from another patriarchal society who described how she had explained to her aunts that if their husbands beat them the Swedish police would be on their side - some of them had been living there years and hadn’t appreciated that.

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      Beet Arthurchilldivine
      12/21/15 12:50pm

      We have done so much to push woman’s rights, that I think we have forgotten to include allowing men and little boys to also express themselves and go outside the norms of what society says their gender should be. Feminism really is about us ALL being equal. I for one, would love to live in a world where boys would choose to wear a dress without a second thought on a hot summer day, because that is just good sense.

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      Harbour SealBeet Arthur
      12/21/15 1:03pm

      I have a friend whose youngest son loves Elsa from Frozen. She was probably a little freaked out by it at first, but she has been awesome. I’m pretty sure she even bought him the doll for Christmas. It was so lovely: I wish more parents were like that with their sons. It seems more acceptable for girls to be tomboys than for boys to be tomgirls.

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    IronPlushyJoanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:15pm

    Can we have this course in American schools? And we can stop pretending violence against women isn’t tolerated in every country? I mean how many articles have we read about overwhelming support for rapists and victims coerced into recanting?

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      toscatiosiIronPlushy
      12/21/15 12:38pm

      Definitely and it should start in preschool. When I was in seventh grade I remember, very vividly, during a game of dodge ball for christ’s sake, one boy proudly claiming that all girls secretly want to be raped. I can’t remember the context of the whole group conversation, but I remember his smugness in stating this alleged “fact”. His horrible attitude towards women continued onward into high school, where he would always boast in class about how men were smarter than women (it’s a biological fact, don’t ya know). Two male teachers in particular thought the subject was hilarious, and used to join him in “joking” about this with the girls like it was some sort of game. If we got too angry we were just “overreacting” and that it was only meant to be fun.

      All these crap beliefs are just being handed down. It has to stop.

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      JeanJeanIronPlushy
      12/21/15 12:49pm

      But isn’t there a difference between countries where marital rape is legal, or where gang-rape convicts are released from prison? We have a plethora of violence against women problems here in the U.S., but at least there is *some* form of due process for rape victims.

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    LotusLotusJoanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:34pm

    It seems to me that teaching people about the laws of their new country is a vital part of helping them get settled. If you make this part of a whole program of learning about their new country & culture, aimed at both men and women, I can’t understand why it’s controversial.

    Statements like “participants will at least know the differene between right from wrong” are white-hot with ethnocentricism, of course. But the program doesn’t have to be, if you statements like “we believe...” and “The law here states.”

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      sofarLotusLotus
      12/21/15 1:37pm

      Exactly. My university required all international students (regardless of their country of origin) to do a few days of “workshops” about U.S. culture and laws. I’m sure other schools do it too.

      From what my friends have told me, they addressed all manner of things, including the fact that Americans pretty much always wear deodorant when they leave the home, that drinking under the age of 21 can land you in deep shit, that a woman who enters your dorm doesn’t necessarily want to have sex with you (even if she sits on your bed), and that it’s considered a huge taboo to hit on female coworkers and give them lavish gifts.

      According to my friends, these lessons were delivered without judgement. And, while some students were laughing at some lessons because they were so obvious, others were wrinkling their brows and asking follow-up questions.

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      Sathaniasofar
      12/21/15 2:05pm

      Ah I had one of those when I went a semester to the States, the best one was “don’t try to bribe the policemen here”.

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    SashaRomelJoanna Rothkopf
    12/21/15 12:09pm

    Please immediately deploy this modern Goofus and Gallant program to middle schools over here thank you.

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      randilynisFINDILYNSashaRomel
      12/21/15 12:30pm

      HiLights

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