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    Dave Hamilton Nolan
    9/25/15 2:56pm

    I want to be compassionate for human reasons, but for reasons of good taste I find myself wondering why they make THAT much.

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      Not_very_smartDave
      9/25/15 2:59pm

      because people everywhere eat the shit up? that’s starting to change, but I mean when you look at the production costs vs scripted it was really a no brainer

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      TeabiscuitDave
      9/25/15 3:02pm

      Because these are skilled jobs in a lucrative industry. Just because you think the content beneath you, that’s no reason to disparage the craft.

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    RealWorldCamelHamilton Nolan
    9/25/15 3:02pm

    My boyfriend who works in post-production wanted me to post the following for him:

    This Industry is defined by the individual. It’s a freelance field, and you set your rates. What you get paid, and what you are ask for are entirely up to you. If a company won’t pay your desired rate, you pass on it or you take what you can get.

    In my experience, there is no major pay gap.

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      DashleyinCaliRealWorldCamel
      9/25/15 3:21pm

      I find that interesting, because women are conditioned to under-value ourselves in the workplace, so if they set their own rates, it would make sense that they get paid less. I also think that it’s always pretty easy for a man - who doesn’t see his coworkers’ paychecks - to say that there’s no pay gap.

      Either way, it’s a good argument for unionization that would result in standardization of pay rates.

      Thanks for sharing.

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      CeraunographRealWorldCamel
      9/25/15 3:22pm

      I too work in post production. There is a pay gap. The entire industry is based on networking, there are more men in hiring positions, and I’ve seen how much easier it is for me as a man to buddy up to EPs. I’ve also worked at a company run primarily by women, and it’s astounding how many more women are employed there, including some of the most talented editors I’ve ever worked with. Also, as a man I’ve never had a problem getting hired on “female-skewing” shows, but I’ve almost never seen a woman work on a “male-skewing” show. I will admit that it’s getting better as time goes on, because I’m seeing more and more women working as assistant editors (who are the editors of the future), but it’s a slow process and one that hasn’t been eliminated at all.

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    blahblahblahHamilton Nolan
    9/25/15 3:11pm

    Most people who work in reality can’t cut it in scripted its why they don’t get paid as much. They all have this fantasy that scripted is so much easier and then can’t cut it when they find out the work is just as hard and often more demanding than what they were use to working in the reality world. The only real difference is there is a lot less assholes and deluded idiots who don’t know their job, they are still in scripted but its much lower percentage.

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      marcypeeplesblahblahblah
      9/25/15 3:20pm

      That is not why they don’t get paid as much. The budgets for scripted are a lot higher than unscripted. I edit documentaries and I have also edited scripted and in my opinion it is the same. I don’t think one is easier than the other. They are different. The only reason I don’t work more in scripted is because I have been pigeon-holed as a documentary editor and it’s harder to get people to hire me in scripted even though I am equally talented in both.

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      Ceraunographblahblahblah
      9/25/15 3:31pm

      Most people in the industry work wherever they got their start way down the ladder. Start off a post-PA in scripted, work your way up to a scripted AE, you end up a scripted editor. Start off in features, you stay in features. Same goes for reality. Every reality editor I know who wanted to break in to scripted has gone back to being an AE to break in. On the flip side, I know a scripted Editor who cannot get hired in reality despite a very lengthy resume. But I guess some people just like to look down their nose.

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    ThomasMooreHamilton Nolan
    9/25/15 3:01pm

    Not poverty positions? Well. Maybe. Depends on where they shoot. In LA? On $1900 a week as a writer? Or god forbid a production assistant on $725 a week. Good luck, sucker. Better pray your car doesn’t break down.

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      FinchFaceThomasMoore
      9/25/15 4:24pm

      To give more perspective to imbalance/cost of living, i’m an editor and salaried in LA. My pay is about $10K / year less than an assitant editor for a reality TV show. At one point, we took on two freelancers. I, as their manager, was making $21K a year less than they were. Their daily pay was $350/day. Avergage for freelancers is roughly $500/day here in L.A. based on other editors I’ve spoken to - I think E! pays $400-$450 a day to freelancers. The only plus side is we were done after 8 hours / i have good benefits. But with my salary (and no cost of living raises in 8 years), my ship is sinking and I will be underwater soon. AND my car broken down last week. Unless I jump over to TV or supplement my income with extra work, i’ll never be able to afford even a decent used car living here.

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      ThomasMooreFinchFace
      9/25/15 9:27pm

      I’m so sorry. I know a number of people in your position. I say freelance. But man, oh, man that can be a tough life.

      I started out right after college in in film production as a grip and art department freelance designer in the 1980’s. I was union. IATSE. And the pay scales were pretty much the same as now. For the time that was considered really high. But the cost of living was waaaaay lower. Rent in my first place was $75 a month!

      My first steady gig with an Ad agency in 1992 - over 20 years ago - was the exact same salary as listed above today. The unions are pretty much busted now. And this is what happens.

      That shit is fucked up.

      Some other dude replied to me with some delusional bullshit about how $750 a week in LA - 39K a year (before taxes) - is enough to live on. But I dismissed him because clearly he has absolutely no idea what the fuck he’s talking about.

      Average rent in LA for a 1 bedroom $1900 or $23K a year. $39K after taxes is what about $34-35K. So that leaves you with $12K to live on a year?

      Yeah. Film and TV production pays shit now.

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    Jerry-NetherlandHamilton Nolan
    9/25/15 3:06pm

    The most significant part is the final one: most of the jobs are paid on daily rates, rather than union weekly minimums. So while, say, $650 for a day may seem good for a hairdresser or makeup artists (let’s face it, the most important players on any housewives show, to be sure), they might only have work one day in a week (and yet be on call), whereas on a union / scripted show in a studio, they’d be on $3500/wk, with a guarantee of work for 20 weeks a year (or however long the show is on). One is a crap shoot with a low return, the other is an actual living.

    Those wages of 20-30k for a P.A. in LA or NY are sub-minimum wage.

    The rates of male showrunners vs. female showrunners have to be weighted because two or three guys (Andy Cohen, Ryan Seacrest, Mark Burnett) are at the top of the reality show heap, with more and more-successful shows than anyone - male or female, so the balance would tip towards them.

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      NorrightJerry-Netherland
      9/25/15 3:31pm

      Also, I doubt these are just 8-hour days. That money is a lot less appealing when you’re working twice as many hours to get it.

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      realityguy22Jerry-Netherland
      9/25/15 3:37pm

      This is somewhat true - but those hairdressers and makeup artists are free to take other jobs when they’re not booked. They’re not “on call.” Reality shows can’t be produced the same way a union/scripted show can - because they’re somewhat based in reality and on real people, you can’t just make everything important in their lives happen M-F 9 to 5. There’s gaps between shooting. Paying people weekly for one day’s work is absurd and not feasible.

      Also - Cohen, Seacrest and Burnett aren’t showrunners just to be clear. They’re EPs. But the stat unfortunately includes both - so yes every production company owner (which skews male) is messing with the stat.

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    DashleyinCaliHamilton Nolan
    9/25/15 3:01pm

    I want to see the numerical data for how many of each position and gender they had to compare, and I’d also like to see the calculations of the significance of the data. It’s so all over the place that, without those important pieces of information, this doesn’t really MEAN anything.

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      Vitamin VDashleyinCali
      9/25/15 3:12pm

      Also, the questions and categories. What questions were asked and how did people categorize themselves. “Development Executive” seems pretty broad for a category. What range of jobs does that category encompass, and how many men and women were at the top of that category versus the bottom.

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    MarkEbnerHamilton Nolan
    9/25/15 3:28pm

    Related: I hosted a crime show on TruTv some years back, for which I was paid 5k/episode. We taped in NY, so I got biz class travel and 4 star Manhattan hotels stays, but there was no guarantee beyond the first six episodes, and that’s how long the show lasted. If I had a day job to quit, I would have kept it. Also, I do “talking head” appearance on Hollywood scandals and crime shows, and my best paydays come from production companies in... CANADA.

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      Rom RombertsHamilton Nolan
      9/25/15 2:58pm

      Hammel Nole star in Ice Rod Trucks “Nobody puts enough pay into me for this. I’ll produce a union.” Crashes. 8pm cst TLC

      Hammel Nole star in Flailin’ with Some Palins “I don’t like any of these Palins, but a snow car is good.” Crashes. 9pm cst TLC

      Hammel Noles star in Dead Crab Ocean Boats “All these crabs are dead and instead of crabs we should put banks in jail.” Waves crash on boats. 10pm cst Discover

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        UmmYeahOkHamilton Nolan
        9/25/15 3:17pm

        I did not work in reality nor live action, but I was a production assistant for many animated films that were brought over from Japan. My job included various things like removing blood or smoking from broadcast shows targeted to kids, replacing kanji with English, credits, even quality control. I made less than these figures, was illegally hired on as a contractor, and knew that any day they could easily replace me with an unpaid intern. I was getting paid to watch cartoons and color, given free merchandise, as well as feel like an unknown celebrity having my work shown on TV and the big screen. There’s no business like show business, which is why so many people are willing to get paid so little just to be a small part of it.

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          WhatthefoxsaysHamilton Nolan
          9/25/15 3:00pm

          I know someone who works on one of those cutesy animal reality shows. If he is really making that kind of money, I am going to be soooo jealous.

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            CeraunographWhatthefoxsays
            9/25/15 3:13pm

            The cutesy animal shows for some reason get the most notes of any show not on Bravo. And as any editor or post-producer will tell you, the notes are the hard part.

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