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    medrawtHamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:22pm

    Many law schools have spent the last few years lowering admissions standards, as measured by GPA and LSAT scores of the incoming students, to try and preserve enrollment (and revenue) as the “law school bubble” became more apparent to larger numbers of prospective students. I doubt the state bar exams have similarly lowered their standards.

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      Cherith Cutestorymedrawt
      8/20/15 12:29pm

      The state bar exams should be eliminated anyway.

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      Tidal TownCherith Cutestory
      8/20/15 12:32pm

      Well, unless every state has the exact same laws on the books, you kind of can’t…

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    CJ4Hamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:30pm

    As a BigLaw partner, here’s my advice to youngsters: if you can’t get into a top 20 law school and graduate in the top half to third of your class (and preferably top 25%), DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL. Save only for rare exceptions, a law degree from a lower tier school is a ticket to nothing other than fruitless job searches, low pay in return for grueling hours, crushing debt, and general unhappiness. While the last two may be universal to baby lawyers, at least its offset by avoiding the first two categories if you win the law school pedigree game.

    And that’s just the gateway question in the analysis. Only after you answer “yes” to the first question, should you move on to examining whether law school and the law are right for you.

    Good luck, young 'uns!

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      ARP2CJ4
      8/20/15 12:35pm

      Sadly, this. Unless you have the disposable income to attend law school and work for a public interest group, you really need to be in the top tier or have a very strong technical/specialty background (e.g. engineering, CS, construction, etc.).

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      writingdownthisburnerkeyCJ4
      8/20/15 12:37pm

      I am basically right on the edge of your recommendation (barely top 20, basically a gpa right in the middle). And I got six figures in scholarship money. And I now have an ok job with some high stress periods but usually fine hours with flexibility (I have to commute though).

      But the debt. Man that debt. Even with the scholarship!

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    mozhatesmeHamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:45pm

    Legit question for a friend:

    Friend is jealous, family member got accepted into Law School, but they are not in a T14 school. In fact, that school has no rank in US News.

    Friend still wants to attend law school, but is also investigating the apprentice route in CA.

    Should friend really be jealous of cousin attending non-ranked, non T14 school? Would it be better for friend to try to do extracurriculars and stellar LSAT score to get into a T14 and just give up if they don’t get offers?

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      CleganeBowlConfirmedmozhatesme
      8/20/15 12:53pm

      On jealousy: Fuck no. No reason to be jealous.

      on second question: Where does friend want to practice? Why do they want to go to law school?

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      mozhatesmeCleganeBowlConfirmed
      8/20/15 12:58pm

      Friend wants to practice in CA (but has other older relatives who also practice in CA and say the market is oversaturated and younger kids coming in are totally inept to practice law - can’t verify that).

      Friend currently has worked for two CA counties doing contract services and the like, and wants to follow this at a higher level, feels constrained by lack of actual law knowledge. Friend is aware that not getting into a good school will almost certainly lead to financial ruin... but still wants to practice law because he feels he’d be better off given some of his work experience.

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    Andrew MochulskyHamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:31pm

    As a later-in-life prospective law student, I think the best thing I did was not go to law school until I spent several years as a legal writer. I’m substantially more confident in my problem-solving and critical thinking abilities; my ability to work under deadlines and with urgency is now deeply ingrained; I know enough fancy-sounding Latin phrases and other $5 word combinations that make basic sentences into scary legal-shamanic wizardry that somehow matters to people in expensive shirts. And perhaps more importantly, I’m not even remotely intimidated by people higher up the ladder, because I know how much their metaphorical (for the most part) shit stinks.

    Also, it’s a bad sign when LSAT prep books talk about problem solving like there’s a formula that one only has to know by rote to succeed at the test. That’s quite literally the opposite of what real-world problem solving requires. If that kind of thinking is typical of my competition... yikes.

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      Medieval KnievelAndrew Mochulsky
      8/20/15 12:45pm

      If you’re so good at problem-solving and critical thinking, why are you applying to law school?

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      Andrew MochulskyMedieval Knievel
      8/20/15 1:01pm

      It was a double dog dare. You wouldn’t understand.

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    tornadoslackssHamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:21pm

    Well, there’s a shortage of teachers. Maybe they can put their $150,000 law school debt to noble use by molding young minds starting out at 28k a year

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      Avada Yo Mamatornadoslackss
      8/20/15 12:35pm

      You joke but...why not? Then they’d have access to income-based repayment programs that they wouldn’t otherwise have if they’d gotten a better paying job, and their loans disappear after 10 years (5?) of public service. And they’d get summers off, while their peers work 300 hour months just to “earn” a week vacation here or there.

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      NewYorkCynicAvada Yo Mama
      8/20/15 1:08pm

      The Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program only applies to certain types of federal loans, I believe. So for someone who only had those types of loans, this would work. Considering the massive debt most law students undertake, most are likely dealing with a large amount of private debt. I could be wrong on some of the details, and it could be an option for certain people depending on their circumstances, but there are definitely people it would not apply to.

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    ihatepickingnamesHamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:29pm

    This issue has been followed closely since the legal market collapsed in 08/09. The running theory is that once college grads realized that the legal market had also been devastated by the recession (and it was not, as many thought, still a safe place where high paying jobs were commonplace) that the smarter people opted out of law school because the return on investment wasn’t there, lowering the quality of the students overall. Added to that (still just a theory), the bottom tier law schools have continued to prey on people. In fact they’ve actually increased their tactics since the recession. So low tier and unaccredited law schools, always charging exorbitant tuition (even by law school standards) have only increased their enrollments by continuing to sell the dream that law is a lucrative safe haven untouched by the economic upheaval students suddenly found themselves entering after college. But these are lousy schools (ESPECIALLY the unaccredited ones) so by the time students come out of three years of law school with over $100k in debt they don’t have the skills/knowledge they need to pass the bar. And they most likely don’t have the money to take the practically necessary $3k+ summer bar review classes on top of the money needed to be able to support themselves while studying full time for the exam.

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      jsjsjsviviaihatepickingnames
      8/20/15 8:42pm

      As I scroll these comments I realize that most people seem to be ignoring that there are other motivations for attending law school besides making a large salary. Some people attend because they actually have a particular passion that they want to pursue and they do so knowing full well the risks (e.g, debt, competition, failing the bar, etc.). To say that “smarter people opted out” is to ignore that even some smart people have other motivations besides “return on investment”.....HOWEVER, fuck the way that law schools try to mislead and misrepresent the reality facing prospective students.

      Speaking as someone who has always had to rely on federal student loans and grants, regardless of whether you get to take the easy path to career success and financial security, an education is still something that can never be taken away from you, no matter how much debt you owe on it.

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      jsjsjsviviaihatepickingnames
      8/20/15 8:45pm

      also, check out all the privilege and classism and snobbery going on in these comments. Not yours in particular, but damn...

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    OMG!PONIES!Hamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:35pm

    Law school shouldn’t be that hard.

    How much academic rigor is required to teach a state college grad with a degree in poli-sci how to do document review?

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      festivusaziliOMG!PONIES!
      8/20/15 12:43pm

      You would not believe how hard it is to teach them anything. I also find it hilarious that the undergrad majors least suited to do well on the LSAT or the bar (poli-sci, english/communications/etc., and pre-law) self-select for law school most frequently.

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      CleganeBowlConfirmedfestivusazili
      8/20/15 12:50pm

      Majoring in journalism really taught me a lot of useful things for being a lawyer. Funny thing is, my writing/editing skills have gotten so much worse after law school.

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    ARP2Hamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:26pm

    When I graduated from law school, the schools with some if the highest bar exam failure rates in my areas were the highest ranked schools- University of Chicago and Northwestern. They focused more heavily on legal theory (legal realism, originalism, etc.) and moot court, than rule and rule-proof.

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      ThisburnerburnsatworkARP2
      8/20/15 12:33pm

      When did you graduate law school. I can certainly tell you that’s not the case these days. Most TTT schools can’t get 50% of their graduates over the bar-exam hump in two tries.

      This is a serious question, so sorry if it comes off as snark—what do the lower-ranked schools teach? One certainly does not need three years of instruction on the black letter law to pass the bar exam.

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      IspeakAmericanThisburnerburnsatwork
      8/20/15 12:44pm

      Thank you for correcting an incorrect post by ARP2.

      I graduated from a T14 in 2013 and don’t know anyone at my school who failed. The bar passage rates for such schools are generally in the 95-99% range.

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    Inara SerraHamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:28pm

    I’ve heard similar sentiments from friends who work at Big Law firms. One told me that they had to bring in a legal writing professor to re-teach their new hires how to write as the work they turned in “looked like a blog”. Some didn’t pass the bar the first time and the firm payed for them to have tutors so they could pass on the second run. Keep in mind these are (mostly white and male) hires from top 10 schools. So Harvard millennials can’t write, they can’t pass the bar, but still have jobs that start with a six figure salary

    I graduated in 2009 and have been doing a hodge podge of things since then to pay the bills while doing freelance and pro bono legal work. The only thing I’ve wanted to be since I was 7 is a lawyer (sick, I know) and some of my pro bono work has been notable. I was able to pass two different states’ bar exams with no issue. And yet a full time job remains elusive, as there are 4 lawyers for every 1 open job (according to the ABA) and I’m a woman who went to a school that was only in the top 100. At one interview I was told I was perfect for the position, but the firm wasn’t comfortable introducing a non-Ivy hire to clients.

    Grumble, grumble, millennials, grumble, patriarchy, grumble.

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      AnnieBodyInara Serra
      8/20/15 12:38pm

      We may have had this conversation before with my old username but Hi, are you me? Cause you sound a lot like me. I hadn’t heard that ABA figure, that is depressing but not surprising. The only people I know who have gotten jobs after graduation since the recession work for family firms or were the top performing class members (and even there, not 100%). Though I will say I that the best thing that’s happened to me in the past year is I quit looking for legal jobs and I’ve stumbled into a great job that I’m loving. Am I making what I was “supposed to” as a lawyer, nope. Do I have fabulous hours, great benefits, and job enjoyment? Hell yes. I’m also doing pro-bono work for a cause I feel passionate about to keep some skin in the game. What sort of freelance work are you doing? So I’m pretty positive (provided I don’t dwell on my seemingly infinite debt).

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      mozhatesmeInara Serra
      8/20/15 4:24pm

      I realize that this is still anecdotal, but holy shit if that doesn’t surprise me. Harvard grads that can’t write? I don’t even understand. Also, fuck that non-Ivy mentality. I wouldn’t be able to remain composed having been told something like that.

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    CleganeBowlConfirmedHamilton Nolan
    8/20/15 12:15pm

    Bar exam executive? Like an executive for the MBE or company that produces it?

    ETA: ah. An NCBE executive. I wonder what the effect of the stress from the essay exam upload fiasco had on the scores?

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      Cherith CutestoryCleganeBowlConfirmed
      8/20/15 12:24pm

      I was wondering that too. If that had happened to me I would have been a fucking mess by the time I got to the multi-state the next day.

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      CleganeBowlConfirmedCleganeBowlConfirmed
      8/20/15 12:24pm

      Also, with the MBE adding Federal Civil Procedure this year, I wonder how this year’s results will look. From what I can gather, the MBE had some significant changes from the past on last year’s exam. For example, recording statutes were examined in a completely different way, and they comprise a significant portion of the property questions on the MBE. Barbri and related bar prep courses taught a specific approach to those questions that proved useless on the exam.

      That combined with the Examsoft essay upload fiasco make me question how much this is tied to the students that took the exam v. other factors. I find it hard to believe that in one year, the class sitting for the bar became that much less capable.

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