Kinja reply list

Read More
Creative DestructionHamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:20pm
*Await comments from the reactionary commentariat saying in unison "Fuck them"*

Foucault's Punish and Discipline should be required reading for all school aged kids, if we want to make people start understanding the utterly inhumane and nakedly retributive nature of our criminal justice system.
Reply
- Read More
  LordBurleighCreative Destruction
  2/05/15 3:30pm
  I taught Discipline and Punish to a class full of college freshman once; at the end of a pretty stalled-out discussion, I asked them what Foucault's attitude toward the disciplinary mechanisms he's talking about is, and they said, "He's in favor of them." That seems to me to be a signal of how deeply entrenched our current "justice" system is in the general consciousness: they found it impossible to imagine that Foucault was critiquing it.
  Reply
- Read More
  Sir BigglesworthLordBurleigh
  2/05/15 3:38pm
  Ouch.
  Reply
Read More
KittensAndUnicorns_v2_The UprisingHamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:25pm
hamilton, i agree with everything you said, but what sort of instances would necessitate solitary confinement ? how long is too long? just a few hours is easy, but even one full day of no human contact? i've told the story before, but i've sat alone in a cell for 3 days, with my only chance of human contact was when the guard came to give me jail food. it's so inhumane, i actually think it's a little bit worse than the death penalty.
Reply
- Read More
  dothedewKittensAndUnicorns_v2_The Uprising
  2/05/15 3:28pm
  Yikes.
  Reply
- Read More
  Hamilton NolanKittensAndUnicorns_v2_The Uprising
  2/05/15 3:39pm
  I'm not a prison administrator but I imagine solitary is necessary maybe when people are violent and need to be isolated to calm down, for example. The concept of leaving people in solitary for multiple years should not even exist.
  Reply
Read More
tedw9Hamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:26pm
The quote from "Alex" sounds like awful stuff. But I'll reserve judgement because we don't know why he's there. For all we know he raped and killed 5 kids, got into numerous fights with prisoners and guards, killed a fellow prisoner, etc.

Would anyone care about that guy's well-being if that were the case? It's not like this guy stole a piece of bread and landed in solitary for 10 years.
Reply
- Read More
  dothedewtedw9
  2/05/15 3:31pm
  Does it make me a bleeding heart librul if I care about his well-being while he is a guest of the state? And if I take the Constitution seriously? His punishment is to be in prison, not to be psychologically tortured for years on end. If society determines that the appropriate punishment for his crimes is such torture, then that is one thing, but he was sentenced to prison, not to solitary confinement.
  Reply
- Read More
  tedw9dothedew
  2/05/15 3:36pm
  Sure I don't disagree that solitary is an awful type of torture (I sure as hell would go crazy), but there are things that we just don't know about "Alex". Like, what if he was constantly trying to rape and kill his cellmate and he had to be separated? Hard for me to feel good or bad for a guy without knowing the facts of why he was put there.
  Reply
Read More
BirdsofpreyHamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:35pm
10 years in solitary is fucking excessive to say the least but the idea of solitary confinement in short term doesn't bother me. If a prisoner is constantly assaulting staff or other inmates then what are they supposed to do with them? The whole idea of solitary was to make it so awful that inmates would be deterred from acting in ways that would lead to it. So if solitary is not effective in deterring bad conduct then what is to be done with those inmates who continually act out?
Reply
- Read More
  Cherith CutestoryBirdsofprey
  2/05/15 3:39pm
  The problem is solitary isn't just used for people who are a serious risk to others. It has become a catch all punishment for a lot of violations. And it often lasts way too long. Even a prisoner who got into one fight isn't necessarily a risk to others to the point he needs to be there for years. There should be some oversight there on length.
  
  Prisons can do whatever they want to these people. And there is little oversight.
  
  And driving someone insane isn't going to make them less likely to hurt someone later. Those people don't exactly have reasoning capabilities.
  Reply
- Read More
  BirdsofpreyCherith Cutestory
  2/05/15 3:47pm
  I don't disagree with you but that still doesn't answer my question. What do you do with the repeat worst offenders if not solitary? Not inmates with minor rule infractions but only the worst of the worst?
  Reply
Read More
skefflesHamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:26pm
Perhaps it is time to drop the whole revenge theory of criminal incarceration, and maybe look into one of those less viscerally satisfying but more fiscally and rehabilitatively successful models instead? I'm starting to think that we might not be the good guys in this world after all.
Reply
- Read More
  EvilSuperMonkeyskeffles
  2/05/15 4:15pm
  Way less money to be made that way though.
  Reply
- Read More
  geminigirl78900skeffles
  2/05/15 4:16pm
  As a US citizen who's lived outside the US for more than 20 years, I'm constantly stunned by the vengeful nature of so much US 'justice'. A distraught father whose child dies in an accident is charged with negligent homicide, a mother suffering from severe postpartum depression suffocates her child and is locked up for life. In civilised parts of the world, the father would likely be given community service orders in the recognition that he'll punish himself daily, far more than any court would. And the mother would be incarcerated, but in a psychiatric institution where she could be treated and rehabilitated, because PPD is an ILLNESS.
  
  Solitary confinement? As a punishment for a prisoner, sure, for a day maybe? If it needs to be longer term, for protection, or health issues, then it needs to be more humane. Doesn't need to be a windowless concrete box with barely enough room to move-that's barbaric. Not surprising to hear that the US employs it for years on end.
  
  My country scares me sometimes.
  Reply
Read More
Mount_PrionHamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:22pm
"I'm a pretty tough guy," says the Understatement Champion of the World, who coincidentally moonlights as somebody still able to convey coherent thought after being in solitary confinement for ten fucking years.
Reply
- Read More
  FinancerookieMount_Prion
  2/05/15 8:03pm
  I did 15 days in solitary, including my first night in jail. I barely kept myself together. 10 years? My god...
  Reply
Read More
Cherith CutestoryHamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:32pm
It should be illegal to have it without judicial oversight even in the most necessary cases. If it is really necessary and they want to do it more than three days* they should be required to have a hearing on the practice. And at the hearing they should have to show a substantial likelihood that the prisoner is a threat to others.

Torture (and it is torture) is cruel and unusual punishment and the practice is essentially adding an additional form of punishment not envisioned by the original sentencing.

* I understand three days is still a long time in solitary. But it would be impracticable to have to have a hearing immediately every time and I understand that. But there should be a cap unless they could prove these people need to be there. And it should only be when necessary, in the first place.

This is done with other things like putting someone in an institution against their will where you can get a quick three day order and then a more lengthy hearing is heard.

I know courts aren't always the most open to prisoner rights. But at the very least it will be an open process and it puts some burden on the prisons. They don't want to be there every day? Well, maybe they are putting too many people in solitary.
Reply
- Read More
  redmenace75Cherith Cutestory
  2/06/15 8:23am
  It is not a bad idea. And if the concern is a backlog in the courts, could we not find a handful of independent and appropriate adults to serve as judges in these cases? Granted, it would massively increase the judiciary but there is something worthwhile to be said for the idea, enough so that the most cogent response shouldn't be "it would overburden the courts". That said, ending the war on drugs would sufficiently unburden the courts to the point where this plan could be feasible. But that is another rant for another time... :)
  Reply
- Read More
  Cherith Cutestoryredmenace75
  2/06/15 10:29am
  Plus, the creation of restraining orders for domestic violence also required a burden on the courts because the hearing had to be heard that day and then another with both parties had to be called 10 days later. But they managed.
  
  This is a human rights issue and, as far as I'm concerned, a constitutional one so burden on courts shouldn't be a factor. This is literally what they are for.
  
  That said, ending the war on drugs would sufficiently unburden the courts to the point where this plan could be feasible. But that is another rant for another time... :)
  
  Preach!
  Reply
Read More
adamjohnson08Hamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:31pm
As a nation, we long ago lost sight of the point of a correctional facility. Life imprisonment, solitary confinement and corporal punishment spits in the face of actual rehabilitation.
Reply
- Read More
  Brian Kelly'sUterusadamjohnson08
  2/05/15 4:35pm
  These days the point of imprisonment is to turn a profit.
  Reply
- Read More
  IoftheStormadamjohnson08
  2/05/15 5:12pm
  Rehabilitation is but one of multiple competing goals of the penal system. Other goals include retribution, deterrence, and incapacitation.
  Reply
Read More
HotShotMcGeeHamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:26pm
Thanks for the mountain of context as to why these guys are in solitary.

It's usually because they are already murders and try / succeed in murdering other inmates / corrections officials.
Reply
- Read More
  DashleyinCaliHotShotMcGee
  2/05/15 3:47pm
  Well, you're free to read the report, as HamNo provided the link. But as you're too lazy, and I'm feeling helpful today, I copied and pasted part of it for you:
  
  Fifty-three percent of prisoners in solitary confinement are there because TDCJ determined that they were either an escape risk or a security threat to officers or other prisoners. On average, they remain in solitary confinement for three and a half years, which indicates that TDCJ continues to isolate many people long after they cease to pose a threat. Forty-six percent are in solitary confinement because TDCJ determined that they were members of one of eight gangs—not because they committed any misconduct while incarcerated. The remaining prisoners are in in "Protective Custody"— isolated in solitary confinement for their own protection.
  
  The population in Texas's solitary-confinement cells is predominantly male; there are only 103 women in Texas solitary-confinement cells. Nineteen people in solitary-confinement cells are under the age of 19, and forty-four are over sixty-five years old.
  
  Thirty-three percent of people in solitary confinement committed non-violent offenses such as property and drug crimes.
  
  The population in Texas's solitary-confinement cells is disproportionately Hispanic. Hispanics comprise over fifty percent of the solitary-confinement population, even though they make up only thirty-two percent of the general population. The racial disproportion is likely because the eight gangs automatically housed in solitary confinement are predominately Hispanic.
  Reply
- Read More
  HotShotMcGeeDashleyinCali
  2/05/15 4:26pm
  Could Texas's high instance of Solitary be a side effect of them having the correct facilities to house these kinds of inmates that we're also not supposed to exterminate via state sponsored murder? Did you know inmates get shipped all over the country based on their particular threat level? Is it shocking that TX houses more people in their Solitary than Rhode Island, North Dakota, and 10 other ho-dunk tiny population states house in total (or have been shipped to TX for a reason)?
  
  Is solitary overused? Specifically in Texas? I imagine it is. But what do you do with the worst of the worst of the worst that are a danger to everyone around them 24 hours a day? There is no down time around a multiple murderer / rapist / whatever. Every interaction with them is the possibility of a life or death situation. So to keep the other inmates safe, to keep the staff safe, and to keep society safe, you keep them away from everyone else at the cost of their own happiness / health / sanity. This "article" indicates Solitary should never be used, at least not more than a couple days in a vague timeframe.
  
  HamNo loves dropping these articles and starting a clickbait / comment storm. There is never an alternative to the problem besides "don't". There is never a "do".
  Reply
Read More
CatdogWhispererHamilton Nolan
2/05/15 3:26pm
How many times a day do you think these people masturbate? Gotta be at least five, right?

ETA: I totally agree with your post, solitary is super fucked up. I just think about how I would react in certain situations, and my first thought was "man I bet I'd jack soooo much."
Reply
- Read More
  lankypankyCatdogWhisperer
  2/05/15 3:34pm
  I want to be mad at you for mocking human suffering, but yeah, my first thought was, "My personal solution to this would be nearly-constant masturbation." Which is probably how I'd end up in solitary anyway.
  Reply
- Read More
  Medieval KnievelCatdogWhisperer
  2/05/15 3:41pm
  Previewing Justice Thomas's concurrence, I see.
  Reply