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    adultosaur married anna on the astral planeJia Tolentino
    1/28/15 11:57am

    there are some P R E S S ED ass white people in these comments. jesus christ.

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      C.A. Pinkhamadultosaur married anna on the astral plane
      1/28/15 12:36pm

      My favorite is the dumb motherfucker who didn't read the piece and thinks Obama ruined America. He's precious.

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      adultosaur married anna on the astral planeC.A. Pinkham
      1/28/15 12:58pm

      did you read the egg thread?

      you HAVE to do a piece on the history of 'the baker's dozen' now. you HAVE TO.

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    sitaJia Tolentino
    1/28/15 11:22am

    It's telling, still, that the best and most practical idea I heard all weekend is predicated on the worst, most misogynist impulses. From a sorority sister of mine whose actual sister—also a UVA alum—is now a police officer who works with victimized women: "Make it a taboo for frat boys to hook up with blackout girls," she said frankly. "Make it so that it's a safety thing for them. Make it so they will do anything to avoid a girl 'crying rape.' Give them a hand signal they can use at parties. Make them say, 'Bro. Protect yourself. She's wasted. You never know what she's going to say in the morning.'"

    The two of us looked at each other, cringing.

    "I was so offended when my sister brought this idea up," my friend said. "And then I realized it doesn't matter the motivations that would make it work, as long as it worked. As long as it made a difference in what actually happens at the end of a night."

    I do not have the words to explain how heartbreaking and frustrating it was to read that. I cringed too, but the truth is, it would work. In fact, it would be greatly effective too. I just can't.

    Jia, this is one of the best pieces I've read regarding the Campus Rape issue. Heartbreaking but much needed.

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      wellingtonbearsita
      1/28/15 11:30am

      But it only protects the institutionalized contempt for women. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO CHANGE.

      [note, not yelling at you, just at the hateful world that crushes my ability to believe being alive is worth it]

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      sitawellingtonbear
      1/28/15 11:38am

      the fact that most juries are sympathetic to these rapists because their 'futures would be ruined' makes me so angry. it's just mind boggling that these horrendous criminals have the audacity to have a victim complex inspite of what they did.

      sometimes i wonder, why are the majority of men so apathetic to victims of rape, both male & female? is it because they simply cannot comprehend the dehumanization that rape brings?

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    benjaminalloverJia Tolentino
    1/28/15 12:17pm

    You make so many excellent points in this piece Jia, but this one stands out;

    The Greek system is not a hotbed of sexual criminals, but rather a hotbed of people invested in a tradition and lifestyle that inherently allows a tremendous amount to go unseen.

    This is where the vast majority of Frat members who would not rape someone- who are disgusted and offended by the suggestion that this is a frat problem- lose the thread. Their good intentions don't negate the fact that they benefit from and contribute to a system that protects the ones who do rape. Nobody intends to protect rapists, they intend to protect the reputation of the frat and system as a whole.

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      adultosaur married anna on the astral planebenjaminallover
      1/28/15 12:46pm

      Nobody intends to protect rapists, they intend to protect the reputation of the frat and system as a whole

      NAIL ON THE HEAD

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      BlueJeansbenjaminallover
      1/28/15 1:34pm

      This is a great point, and one that ties to some other thoughts I've been having about how frats really just reflect many of the same problems as the broader institutions of which they're part. A school like Amherst with a sterling national reputation has, in many ways, the same issue. The institution's goal is primarily protecting the reputation of the whole institution; how that plays out on an individual level is that victims are shut down and victimizers aren't punished. It's not necessarily that schools (/institutions) are proponents of rape/rapists, it's that their first goal is to manage everything internally to protect the institutional brand and currency.

      Of course, this ultimately devalues the institution when finally the silence breaks and it comes out that a whole portion of the student body has been stepped on in the name of a harmonious exterior, so it backfires (or at least has the potential to backfire) in the end. But I'd wager most frats, and colleges, and NFL teams, and other (often male dominated) institutions that ignore or cover up issues of rape aren't doing it on the party line that rape isn't a big deal or isn't bad — they're doing it because they see individual cases of rape as threats to the larger institutional profile. What happens in one incident is less crucial than protecting the umbrella over thousands of people. This is obviously a narrow and problematic and damaging view, but one that is appealing when the alternative is seeing rape as part of a culture rather than singular happenings.

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    nothipJia Tolentino
    1/28/15 11:32am

    People who didn't read the piece but have very strong opinions in support of frats and exclaim "not-all-men!" please write it in an e-mail draft and then delete it no one cares, thanks.

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      IWASDARTHVADER's death star canteennothip
      1/28/15 12:19pm

      Mandatory.

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    Bears for PresidentJia Tolentino
    1/28/15 12:03pm

    Great piece Jia.

    You know as someone who's maybe been a little too quick in the past to be someone saying "Hey, my experience at a Fraternity wasn't like what happened here so..." I think one of the things that's been driven home for me in all of the articles since and including Rolling Stone is that there's maybe a little bit too much of a instinct on all sides to sum up the Greek system as being far more uniform than it really is as opposed to a very complex and weird social structure that varies wildly. Not just from school to school or in my case country to country but also in things like individual chapters of a national Fraternity or Soroity varying wildly from one to the other. Heck as someone on the wrong side of 30 I'm sure there's even generational creep in there.

    So while there's always going to be a part of me that wants to see the Greek system through my own experiences with it I think something I'm coming around on is that it's a system that's so large and lax in enforcing any real standards in most places that all manner of things probably can and do occur. The bad shit doesn't mean the good shit doesn't happen and the good shit doesn't mean that when it gets bad it gets crazy bad.

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      lucy pevensieBears for President
      1/28/15 4:21pm

      Yeah, as somebody who is almost universally critical of Jezebel's Greek coverage, I thought this article was well done. It addressed the (very real) problems of the Greek system without resorting to tired-ass stereotypes or blanket statements. (Well, until the end, I guess, but you can't have everything. For Jezebel, it was very good.)

      What outsiders don't really understand is that it's not that sorority and fraternity members are opposed to all criticism of the system. They just want to see accurate criticism, which very rarely comes from somebody who's never been in a fraternity or sorority themselves. Even the most gung-ho sorority members can identify problems within the system (although they may be blind to those that don't affect them personally). Nobody is asking for zero criticism whatsoever. They're just saying that the system is insular, and, as Jia said, inclined to hide their problems or look the other way—and people who haven't engaged personally with the Greek system are unlikely to understand how problems actually play out within it. (That's why disillusioned former Greeks make the best critics, I think—far enough removed to be critical, but they have enough experience with the system to understand the problems on the level it requires to address them. But I would say that, as a disillusioned former sorority girl.)

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      Bears for Presidentlucy pevensie
      1/28/15 4:26pm

      Yeah, although I guess my point sort of there was less "I want more accurate criticism of the system" and more "It's not really a system so much as it is dozens or hundreds of different systems and that none of us can speak with too much authority on what they are or aren't as a whole".

      Like I wouldn't say I have a more accurate idea of what things are like with Greeks at the University of Virginia than a GDI there just because I was in a Fraternity at a different school in a different country.

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    toomanydogsarejustenoughJia Tolentino
    1/28/15 11:50am

    This is an intelligent, nuanced look at this continuing problem. As a Charlottesville resident, what I hate MOST (lots to choose from) is the continuing exclusion of students of color from this conversation, and from serious media attention. I wish I found those parts of this harder to believe — it's horrible, and it's easy to believe. Well done with this piece. I hope it gets read and read and read, and acted upon.

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      Carbs & BarbsJia Tolentino
      1/28/15 12:21pm

      "Everything they love is founded on everything I hate."

      This sentence is glorious.

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        LéonCarbs & Barbs
        1/28/15 2:08pm

        I think it's true, for any decent person.

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        Melinda Carbs & Barbs
        1/28/15 6:11pm

        I went to Virginia too, and that's how I felt the entire time I was there. The juxtaposition of certain values and cultures there (and at many other Greek heavy school, I am sure) is mind-boggling.

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      Seize: it's about ethics in gossip journalismJia Tolentino
      1/28/15 11:54am

      This was a fantastic piece. The only parts where you lost me a little bit was the vignette about alcoholism and the brief mention of Trayvon Martin. Those items both seemed like thematic misfits with the rest of your piece which either needed more development or needed to be cut.

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        Rhetorical ImpulseSeize: it's about ethics in gossip journalism
        1/28/15 5:21pm

        I was able to follow the vignettes but am starting because yay constructive criticism!

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      Tabby GevinsonJia Tolentino
      1/28/15 11:25am

      Excellent piece Jia.

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        BlenGlenettonJia Tolentino
        1/28/15 11:37am

        Geez, did I read that headline wrong.

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          Bears for PresidentBlenGlenetton
          1/28/15 11:53am

          Moderately fun fact, once I became Social Chair of my fraternity, I made sure we had our Rush dinners at the actual Deli where Geddy and Alex formed the band.

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          OutShine8BlenGlenetton
          1/28/15 2:22pm

          So with you on that.

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