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MissNormaDesmondJia Tolentino
11/24/14 2:57pm
This has reduced me to tears. Not because I had the same experience — because I didn't. I drank like an alcoholic fish during my college years — in parties at my college, and in bars (where I lied about my age), and in frats, and in guys' rooms at other colleges, and basically anyplace I could get ahold of booze. None of the men in whose presence I was drunk ever touched me against my will. I was young and stupid and trusting, and I didn't have to pay any price for that stupidity and that trust, other than the hangover the next day. And that's the way it should have been for Kelly, and I'm so terribly sorry that it wasn't that I'm crying.

Nothing she did made this happen. I did everything she did, and nothing happened to me, because no one in my presence chose to be a fucking sociopath and take advantage of my condition. If he had, it would have been his choice that made the criminal behavior happen, not mine. Yes, it's worth talking about prudence, and caution. But far too often, what underlies those discussions in many people's minds is, "And if you're not prudent or cautious, what happens to you is your fault." No. It's not. It is only and always the fault of the person who chooses to assault the person who is vulnerable.

I'd also like to point out that none of the men with whom I drank was a saint, or much of a feminist. It doesn't take some superhuman level of control not to abuse someone who is vulnerable in your presence, it's not a fucking "whoops" moment. It takes a conscious, deliberate decision to choose to abuse someone, and to follow through on that decision. When we allow ourselves to be distracted by discussions about prudence and caution, whether or not we mean to, we are giving cover to the people who make these decisions. We are normalizing their choice, and making it seem unremarkable.
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  Persephones6MissNormaDesmond
  11/24/14 3:20pm
  You're so right. I always tell my mother that: of all the people of any gender I have been alone with in my lifetime, under any circumstances, only one decided to rape me.
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  Galaxy GirlMissNormaDesmond
  11/24/14 3:39pm
  What I don't understand is why isn't prudence and cautiousness with regards to getting consent more of an idea amongst these frat guys? Don't any of them cower in fear that some feminazi is gonna cry rape and therefore take great pains to ensure he's like, actually getting enthusiastic consent from any ladies? It shouldn't be that hard to find some willing women in college? What kind of losers are these guys that they NEED to get women overly drunk in order to get any sex?
  
  Also, why don't these guys emphasize getting their partner off as a measure of their sexual prowess, rather than just sticking it in there? If I'm some wanna-be Lothario I'd think it would be damn shameful to brag about the "dead" girl you just bagged... why can't we get these frats to emphasize that constant, enthusiastic consent and screaming orgasms will make them rape-accusation-proof?
  
  I guess it's because being accused of rape just doesn't come with enough deterring consequences for them to address it in any sort of constructive (not to mention sex-positive) way.
  
  FRAT GUYS, HERE'S A HINT: IF YOU GET LESS RAPEY YOU'LL PROBABLY IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF YOUR SEX LIVES.
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cumberbatchedJia Tolentino
11/24/14 2:19pm
'I told my two best friends, who told me I was a drunk slut. I never told anyone after that.'

SHAME SHAME SHAME on all 'friends' who do this, may they rot in hell.
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  JoeBagOFriescumberbatched
  11/24/14 4:20pm
  When I was a kid, there was another kid that was attacked. We were less than 10 years old at the time. He made the mistake of talking about it, his nickname became, Butt Fuck <lastname>. When I was raped at 12, I didn't tell a soul, who wants to be called Butt Fuck, or Blow Job, or...
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  macgynverJoeBagOFries
  11/24/14 6:41pm
  I'm so sorry that happened to you. Terrible terrible the toll victim shaming takes.
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djlsdsJia Tolentino
11/24/14 2:38pm
I'm really glad you both talked about the problem of dry sororities contributing to (or maybe just reflecting) an overall messed up culture. Are sororities at most schools dry? My tiny (social justice-minded) college had no greek life, but still all the big parties were hosted bythe male sports teams, and there definitely was a general expectation that men were the ones responsible for getting alcohol. It all feels very old-fashioned, and not in a good way.
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  tuxedocatherinedjlsds
  11/24/14 2:48pm
  Panhellenic sororities are mandated by nationals to be dry; it is not decided on a campus by campus basis.
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  ocelotCdjlsds
  11/24/14 3:32pm
  What about banning alcohol from frats? Most people find that idea unthinkable.
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tuxedocatherineJia Tolentino
11/24/14 2:14pm
I just want to thank Kelly for sharing her story and say that of all the things she mentioned, this was the part that really got me:

Yeah, they've put it together. They know now. My dad called me crying after I posted that Facebook status about the Rolling Stone article. He asked me why I didn't ask them for help. I told them the truth—that I wanted to protect them.

But now, if I were to give anyone advice, I would say: tell your parents.
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  Diana6815tuxedocatherine
  11/24/14 2:48pm
  I think it depends on your parents. If they say you deserved what happened, that will only make everything harder.
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  tuxedocatherineDiana6815
  11/24/14 2:52pm
  I just think that no person who has been sexually assaulted should ever feel that they need to "protect" their parents from the truth the way Kelly did. They also shouldn't be ashamed to tell. If the parents are assholes, that's a different story.
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Emma GolddiggerJia Tolentino
11/24/14 2:47pm
This was a great, moving, informative piece. Thank you so much for sharing it. What struck me about it - and please understand that I am not trying to detract from the horror of this piece at all - is how much of it seemed so typical. Like, people doing you a small favor (letting you use their bathrooms) with the understanding that they expect sex in return. People following you around all night and trying to separate you from your friends. People making cute roofie jokes to let you know that they could take advantage of you if they wanted to, and that the idea has entered their minds. Guys making jokes about how great it is to have a vulnerable, defenseless woman around. Etc. I've never been raped but I'm so familiar with that kind of environment where the idea of rape and the conditions that easily lead to rape are part of the party culture. Do you know what I mean? Also, can we talk about this part?

What else did they ask you?
The male faculty member on the panel, a computer science professor, kept repeating these questions over and over: Had I ever cheated on a boyfriend? Had I ever had sex with multiple people at the same time? How many sexual partners?
Those kinds of questions are explicitly prohibited by Title IX, but they had a real effect. I started being like, "Did I deserve this? Maybe I deserved all of this."
Right. People draw a connective line, and it feels like a real one.
Yeah. And they didn't even ask the guy how much he drank that night, anything about his sex life. That male faculty member kept asking me, "Why the hell would you drink so much? Why?"

Can we talk about this fucking part? Can we talk about how the character of the rape victim is always under scrutiny while the character of the rapist is irrelevant?
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  Persephones6Emma Golddigger
  11/24/14 3:03pm
  But that's what makes rape culture so prolific— the near-banality of it. Society expects some crazy dramatic not-run-of-the-mill event leading up to it, and often times there aren't. This also allows rapists to keep on keeping on, since a lot of these pre-assault situations are fairly normal events. But thinking that way lets people go through life feeling like they're not in danger- "if I just hang out with people I know I'll be okay", etc. But people looking to perpetrate violence know this and exploit it; they know it means people aren't worried about being attacked and they also know people (even the victim themself) will have a hard time believing it after the fact.
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  cantfindmyrealacctEmma Golddigger
  11/24/14 3:05pm
  As a female engineering alumni of UVa, it bothered me a lot that a Computer Science professor was chosen (no idea how these things were assigned), someone on campus with less interaction with female students (granted I graduated many years ago, but the engineering school was about 15-20% female) and that he thought these questions were even remotely appropriate. People talk about making STEM more welcoming to females? So much is so awful about this whole thing, but I am quite sad that an educated adult thought this was ok.
  
  Someone has already posted the link, I have added to the alumni calling for change, but I just want to encourage people to give constructive feedback, especially from those who are more versed in policy-speak and educated as to what precisely needs to be changed in the process. The culture change is harder to address, but the administration needs to get on board ASAP with justice for rape victims.
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pluupdyJia Tolentino
11/24/14 2:18pm
"I'm so grateful to that guy. The only reason I think I got traction was because he was a third-party witness who didn't previously know me. His testimony made my case for me."

This pisses me off. Like, we believed her but that this kid came out of the woodwork and reported it makes it EXTRA true. Corroborating a story makes all the difference, but her saying "made my case" just says a lot about this horrific experience and rape culture. When I look back at college and think of how immature people were back then, I'm eternally happy this kid didn't forget about it next day or just brush it off, because I can also see that happening too.
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  Jia Tolentinopluupdy
  11/24/14 2:25pm
  I agree with you, absolutely: and I also think we can recognize that we can trust women in their recounting of a traumatic experience while also understanding that a third-party witness is useful for formal proceedings, legal or not. Like, I am grateful for him procedurally and not morally — but grateful, certainly, regardless.
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  PortlandJia Tolentino
  11/24/14 3:02pm
  And WTF is wrong with the cops and prosecutor that they wouldn't even try to make this stick?
  
  - They 3rd party witness saw her be carried up the stairs completely incapacitated
  
  - The nurse said she had a pulse in the 20s to 30s
  
  - The brother even admitted she threw up.
  
  Really shows you how much the criminal justice system WANTS to handle these cases. (Meaning: Not at all.)
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kitteneyeJia Tolentino
11/24/14 2:27pm
I get what she is saying about UVA being mostly par for the course, but I am also just remembering when I seriously looked into going to the school. I got in, went to admitted students weekend, and everything. It has so many great things - beautiful campus, great classes, etc. - but what eventually really turned me off of the place was the pervasiveness of the Old Southern Boys Club traditions. They are really in to their secret societies, in a way that puts someone like Yale to shame, and then the way that misogyny is wrapped up in the guise of "tradition" (i.e. the dry sororities) struck a sinister note with my mom (at 17, I fully admit to being more wrapped up in buying all of their college merch). Literally, both of my parents on the car ride back up to New York were like "we do not feel comfortable sending you there."

That sort of thing does have an affect on the culture of the school and how things such as rape are treated, both by the administration and the student body. I would actually be really curious to see what would happen if a student took it upon themselves to do the "mattress project" that the Columbia student is doing, if they would get the same near-universal support from the student body.

ETA: This is not to say that UVA does not have great academics and many good things going for it, this very serious issue of rape accusations aside. This was just my own personal experience with it. And the school I went to is fully embroiled in rape allegations of its own, so it's not like I've got a mountain to stand on over here.
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  jmmmkitteneye
  11/24/14 3:14pm
  Bless your parents for listening to their own intuition.
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  OmarGonekitteneye
  11/24/14 4:37pm
  I'm glad you said this because I was going to comment on it as well. On one hand, you don't want to ignore rape culture by saying UVA is an outlier, but after the writer and the interviewee say that it is not different, they point out ways in which it is different, "girls are barreled into a default situation where every variable is controlled by frat boys." I don't think it lets other schools off the hook to say say that UVA has a high concentration of factors that encourage rape with impunity.
  
  Back on the day several UVA departments were known for having unusually lax attitudes towards male faculty dating students. Can't help but think these things are related.
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NietzschiroJia Tolentino
11/24/14 3:30pm
People say it's a fine line, and it might be: but only if you're not interested in consent—if you feel that you don't need to obtain it.

Very well put. People come up with all these wild theoreticals to justify how thin that line could be, but to my fellow dudes, I usually ask the same line of questions.

...You've had drunk sex before, correct? Has the ever been any doubt that the partner in that process was a willing participant? Have you ever had sex and you weren't sure you were consenting?

While some men will clearly lie or delude themselves (as in the case above), the underlying point remains. If you're able to have unequivocal opinions about your given and received consent throughout your - sober and alcohol-aided - sex life, then why would you presume that somebody else lacks that same clarity?
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  MissNormaDesmondNietzschiro
  11/24/14 7:48pm
  I had a conversation yesterday with a man that was about exactly this. He's probably in his late 50s, early 60s, and he started out saying, with reference to Bill Cosby, "hey, so he had a lot of sex, so what?" Because this is someone I know, I fought not to get mad, and said, "Well, I don't think anyone really cares about the sex, it's about the fact that he coerced women into having sex they didn't want to have."
  
  As the conversation continued, it became clear to me one more time that the people who understand least about sexual assault are the men who'd never commit it. People tend to judge people by what they'd do, and this guy wasn't imagining Cosby as someone who might enjoy the force and control aspect of rape, but just as someone who was like he was as a young man — wanting to have as much sex as he could, but wanting consensual, mutually pleasurable sex. He can't imagine what it would be like to be someone who specifically enjoys forcing someone else to have sex, and he's never had to deal with such a person himself, so he essentially misunderstands the topic. I hope I got him to look at it in a different way, by saying, repeatedly, in various ways, "Sure, you got some as often as you possibly could, I have no problem with that at all. By the way, so did I, as a young woman. Consensual sex is fabulous. What bothers me about what Cosby is accused of isn't that it was sex, it's that it wasn't consensual." He seemed to hear me. I hope it took.
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JoanMillerTwoSuitsJia Tolentino
11/24/14 2:54pm
I know there is a larger discussion about rape culture, or entitlement, but I keep getting stuck on this. I have read that research shows that rape on campus is actually not a confusion or regretted sex, but often the work of serial predators who happen to be college students. But somehow administrators assume/act like it is still something like "drunk man and drunk woman have this drunk misunderstanding and who are we to judge?" Instead of men who take advantage of opportunities like a rush week to carry out crimes, preying on different young women over time, sometimes at multiple universities. I think that's one of the most depressing things to me. I think about the woman who survives a sexual assault or rape and then doesn't get justice and everything she goes through. Then I think that this rapist (even if he leaves the school) is going to go to another school and probably do the same thing to another young woman who probably also won't be well served. And so on. It's a university, there is data available, and university employees ignore data in favor of this "well, it could just be a genuine misunderstanding, or maybe she is just a drunk slut" narrative. Makes. Me. Crazy.
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  OmarGoneJoanMillerTwoSuits
  11/24/14 4:40pm
  YES! This goes along with the different ideas of what constitutes "harm."
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  AnglKatJoanMillerTwoSuits
  11/24/14 5:04pm
  Well-put. The fact that massive groups of presumably non-sociopath intellectuals don't get this is astounding.
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thesquarerootofJia Tolentino
11/24/14 3:57pm

They decided he was not guilty of sexual assault, but he was guilty of sexual misconduct. It was because he knew he'd served me those drinks, four to six double vodka drinks and a beer. The sexual assault board agreed that I was intoxicated past the point of consent—but they also said that he did not intend to cause me any harm.
Let me find the wording here for why it wasn't sexual assault. [papers shuffling] So, in the decision, they said he would have had to have recognized the conditions of my intoxication and exploited it for it to be assault. They don't think he did that.

I just...I don't care how fucking biased one is, how unwilling to believe a woman someone is...how does KNOWINGLY getting someone wasted, KNOWINGLY letting someone suffer through a pulse of 30 without calling 911, and then KNOWINGLY engaging in sex not constitute an intent to harm. How is this not recognizing the conditions of intoxication (like, hello, her fucking pulse) and then having sex with her unconscious body anyway not count as exploiting? There are no legal acrobatics one can do to justify this. It's making me so fucking angry. Beyond words angry.

WHY THE FUCK DO WE AS WOMEN CONTINUE TO BE EXPECTED TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE THIS HAPPENS TO 1 IN 4 OF US? That isn't a society! That's chaos, anarchy, and an outright war on women's bodies.
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