Kinja reply list

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AdamJohnsonNYCHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 10:56am
Congratulations Nolan, you're part of the problem. The second the left buys into this entirely silly notion that our governments are "bankrupt", the battle is already lost. "Starving the beast" works as a far-right strategy because myopic liberals like you confuse a failure of political will and regressive taxation schemes and hyper-regionalism with a lack of actual resources.

So we sell our art. So we auction off our schools to the Gates and Walton families. So we pawn our cultural staples to the highest bidder in an effort to triage, and mock anyone who thinks this deal with the devil is not a sustainable social contract with the cheap language of anti-elitism.
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  Queen of BithyniaAdamJohnsonNYC
  7/10/14 10:59am
  Yeah, this is true.
  
  It wouldn't be such an incredible tragedy if a few of those paintings were sold off, but it seems unfortunate when you consider that the only reason to consider doing so is due to a lack of political will in this state to do something to help the city.
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  Hamilton NolanAdamJohnsonNYC
  7/10/14 11:00am
  Detroit filed for bankruptcy. They are in fact bankrupt.
  
  If you want to have a grand philosophical debate about the larger meaning of "bankrupt" that's fine, but meanwhile people do not have water.
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Cherith CutestoryHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 11:08am
That money will go to Detroit's creditors. Not Detroit's people. They will lose the art and be no better off for it at the end of the day. Art money won't go right to the water bills.

And it is unlike you to just accept that sort of excuse for shutting off people's water in the first place.
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  AstigmatismCherith Cutestory
  7/10/14 11:23am
  This is the real point. If you're bankrupt but have some property protected in trust, you can't sell that property and use the cash to buy a car - the cash is no longer protected, becomes part of the bankruptcy estate, and ultimately goes to the creditors. That includes the pension funds in this case, but it also includes billions of dollars owed to hedge funds and distressed debt investors. All this would do is impoverish Detroit further to enrich a few.
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  ThidrekrCherith Cutestory
  7/10/14 11:40am
  Yes. This. There is no way that Detroit would be able to sell art and dedicate it to specific parts of the budget. Creditors, who are already taking a massive loss, would expect to be paid first and we'd be right back to where we started, but with less art.
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AlexHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 11:35am
I live right across the river, in Windsor (Canada) and I can tell you how awful it is to see Detroit simply withering away. It is so bad that it would be a bad city even by developing nation standards, so the fact that not too long ago it represented the model for what the future held for the rest of America, and the world -damn- it's just tragic. But this is what happens when your citizens are uneducated and left to their own devices. Hate to say it, but it's true. Electing and re-electing Kwame illustrated this fact better than anything else could. I tell you, it's a very weird feeling to know at what polar opposite worlds a single river can place people...

Detroit needs to reinvent itself. They have treasures that could make it a world-class tourist destination. It's such a contradiction but Detroit is packed with culture and history. But they won't capitalize on it. Public servants are either panicked or corrupt, how can you expect such people to have good ideas let alone make them happen. The other issue are the citizens. Detroit people are just of such low class that it's scary. It's not spoken of much, but man, it is scary.
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  Ginger Is A ConstructAlex
  7/10/14 11:56am
  YIkes, I am moving to metro Detroit for work at the end of the month....
  
  I totally agree, they should promote the art as a reason to visit the city, thinking big-picture and long term. Hell, the July issue of Vogue did an article about a recent art exhibit in Detroit, and urged readers to travel there. It would be short-sighted to sell off those paintings.
  
  Also, curious what you mean by this: "Detroit people are just of such low class that it's scary. It's not spoken of much, but man, it is scary."
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  AlexGinger Is A Construct
  7/10/14 12:04pm
  I wanted to edit that but it was too late, of course, I know people from Detroit who are very hard working, very much ready to get the city up and running. It was ignorant of me to generalize like that. To be honest, you shouldn't be freaked out about moving there. It is a very inexpensive city to live in. Food is cheap, housing is just insanely affordable and there are a lot of things in the region (including in Ontario) for you to do. Some of the best restaurants are in Detroit and the drop in population means very little traffic issues (but it does happen). The problems become more evident once you need to access public works and services, and there are many areas you simply need to avoid at all costs lest you want to be robbed/shot/killed. The police don't respond to calls from specified locations. Anyways, to end this post on a positive note, the truth is that if you have a job and good income, Detroit right now is a fantastic option as everything is so affordable that you can live the good life!
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The QueenHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 10:57am
Or start hitting up Ford Field, Chrysler, GM, and the other places that owe millions in back water bills and haven't paid. Shut their water off. Don't shut off the water of people who can't pay.

The saddest thing was hearing that a pregnant woman was having her water shut off and the contractor wouldn't even let her fill up a few empty jugs first.
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  SWAismyrideThe Queen
  7/10/14 11:46am
  The water department is just another example of how poorly run the muni services were in Detroit. They are shutting off the water because people didn't pay for YEARS. They stopped even considering it a bill. You can't just wave your hands and demand back pay when you were too busy to collect for far too long. The lack of notice that they are giving and unwillingness to work with some people is ridiculous.
  
  For what it's worth, the big companies are working on paying their bills, but it's a courtesy that the rest of the residents and small businesses are not always getting.
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  The QueenSWAismyride
  7/10/14 11:59am
  Exactly. There was a great piece on NPR about this crisis this morning. A lot of people having there water shut off literally have NOTHING, especially the older folks who had their pensions dissolved.
  
  On the other hand, the Detroit Municipal Department is disputing its $9M water bill and is on a $44/month payment plan.
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nopunin10didHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 10:57am
I would hate for all that art to get sold to private collections, but it would serve the interests of the local public /and/ art lovers if they would host an invitation-only auction.

Only other publicly-owned (or at least non-profit, but open to the public) art museums should be able to be customers. That might cut the price of some of the individual pieces, but it'd ensure that the art stays in the public sphere.
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thingsandstuffHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 11:18am
I like your take, generally. But Detroit has no revenue base and little managerial investment in the longterm. There is no one-time five-piece art sale to cover the pensions and water-bill. If it works once, the next bills will be up for it, AND the collection's going to depreciate substantially the more willing the DIA is to sell it.

Also, you're always talking about housing costs and I have a great idea to fund affordable housing in NYC: just build East German style units all throughout central and prospect parks—you know, the parts that are just unused public land. Just a couple ultra cheap high rise complexes and open up a couple residential developments for the super wealthy to incentivize developers. It will solve the problem! Sure, you sacrifice one of the great reasons for living in NYC, but you can always drive to Vermont or Upstate or to the Hamptons if you want greenspace. Greenspace is everywhere. Greenspace is free. Real estate and shrinking wages, however, are incalculably expensive. Develop Central and Prospect Park with luxury high rises and slums. Save some people.
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  zygomaticthingsandstuff
  7/10/14 1:13pm
  "I have a great idea"
  
  No. You don't. Who do you think makes the most of the parks? Certainly not people who can afford a weekend in VT. Those parks are irreplaceable. They are the soul of the city. I'm not trying to be confrontational, here. You're right that there is a serious dearth in affordable housing. But those parks are one of the few slices of New York wealth that everyone can enjoy.
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  thingsandstuffzygomatic
  7/10/14 3:08pm
  Sorry, I skipped my coffee this morning and so sounded pissy instead of sarcastic: I'm trying to illustrate that this author who complains of overdevelopment views space as an irreplaceable civic asset for all, as do many—even middle class, since the museum is free to Detroiters and surrounding residents—residents of Detroit. There's very little beautiful parkland in the city proper and I'd venture to say the DIA is equivalent to the park: something of which to be proud, a peaceful space, a thriving place. I do like the idea of just selling a few luxurious Crown Jewels (as long as it's not diego rivera), but unfortunately can't see it staying there once you tap that well.
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G3istbotHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 11:35am
As a native of Detroit, let me tell you that selling the Art will not resolve the problem. You can look at history, not just of Detroit, but the world, and see that throwing money at the problem does not resolve it. Often times it goes mismanaged and within a short while the same issues are still present and there is no sign of improvement. What Detroit needs is a complete re-work and re management. The city is broke because there are no jobs, there are no jobs because no one wants to live there, and no one wants to live there, and no one wants to live there because its honestly not a safe place to be most of the time and there are no jobs, resulting in a loop. Look at the areas surrounding Detroit, the small cities and towns, and you'll see overwhelmingly that life is good, many people are happy, and the areas are safe. So the problem, really, is management and the attitude of the people of Detroit completely, when you can change that, you'll see money coming through. Look at New York for an example, during the 80s it was probably one of the scariest places in the world; it took a complete restructuring to bring it to the level it is now.

Where I live now is a small little poor suburb hit extremely hard by the recession. Yet just recently it was announced that we are seeing the least amount of crimes committed we've ever seen before, people are spending more, and we're starting to finally grow again. Despite being right on the border of Detroit, close enough to where I can walk outside my door, go across the street, and be in Detroit, we've continued to thrive. The difference? When we saw the problem we reacted and when the system didn't work we changed it. We didn't look for hand outs and beg for money or begin selling off things.

Also, Detroit does not own that art; the only reason the DIA is there is because the surrounding counties in the area have levied a tax which goes towards supporting it. Still, even if they sell it all, it will not resolve the problem.
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Groucho MarxismHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 10:58am
I would see this as a pretty good idea, contingent of course on the views of Detroit's own citizens, if it weren't for my deep skepticism that somehow, the town's emergency manager or the state government would find a way to expropriate slice after slice of that pie to non-Detroit interests before so much as a crumb wound its way to paying the water bill (or any other even remotely civic use for the money).
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  amgarreGroucho Marxism
  7/10/14 11:15am
  Exactly. No way a dime of that money goes to pay the water bill. Or rather, if a dime goes to pay the water bill, the other $89,999,999.90 is going into the hands of some lawyer/broker/auction house. Just say no thanks, Detroit.
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  Sudoku7Groucho Marxism
  7/10/14 6:11pm
  My hesitation is in that some of the art assets were donated on the stipulation that they not be sold.
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unfortunatelylostburnerHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 10:52am
The fact that this country is leaving a formerly great city in the position to have to choose between art and water is just...This piece reads like an Onion article from fucking 1995.
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  Mackleunfortunatelylostburner
  7/10/14 10:59am
  
  "It was a rough place – the seediest dive on the wharf. Populated with every reject and cutthroat from Bombay to Calcutta. It's worse than Detroit." – Ted Striker
  
  The Detroit jokes go way back grasshopper.
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  AnarchyOfTasteunfortunatelylostburner
  7/10/14 11:01am
  "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken
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apeshapedmanreturnsHamilton Nolan
7/10/14 10:53am
I for one prefer human suffering all around me, as long as I can go stare at a Matisse.
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  The Queenapeshapedmanreturns
  7/10/14 10:59am
  The way I read that, I heard it as one of those "American Voices" quips in The Onion.
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  apeshapedmanreturnsThe Queen
  7/10/14 11:03am
  
  I imagined this guy.
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