Kinja reply list

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fefuHamilton Nolan
5/08/14 3:37pm
"I think the larger point here is that this is all a terrible way to run a successful corporation."

But that's the thing, Amazon IS successful. It gets away with treating employees that way because it can. I know so many people who only buy their books from Amazon, only by DVDs from Amazon, rent most of their movies and TV shows from Amazon. And when I try to talk about the less-than-stellar ethics of this company, all I get from people I know is (and say it in a whiny-ass voice):

- "But they're the cheapest!"
- "It's just so much easier to get it from Amazon!"
- "They have fast shipping!"

Etc. etc.

As long as consumers don't speak with their dollars, meanies like Walmart, Amazon, Target, etc. will just keep doing what they're doing.
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  Hamilton Nolanfefu
  5/08/14 3:58pm
  Amazon is successful *because investors choose to suspend the normal ways of judging companies because they believe Amazon will grow to dominate the retail market in the years to come.* They are not "successful" by traditional metrics like "making a profit." Therefore they are extremely vulnerable should they ever lose the trust of the public, which is one of the main reasons these inside reports are valuable and relevant.
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  filmgirlfefu
  5/08/14 4:05pm
  This is the new American way, cheap cheap cheap. Who gives a rats ass about who actually makes the products or works for the horrible companies.
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The Other TheronHamilton Nolan
5/08/14 3:43pm
I'm amazed all the people who seem to think this is the way it ought to be. No - we should not have to exchange our humanity for employment.

And what is described here is a very stupid way to run a company. Mountains of research in different fields point to the same thing - employees are most productive when they have autonomy, the opportunity to gain mastery in their field, and can see real purpose in what they do. Not when they are driven to edge of madness by an all-consuming authoritarian work environment.
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  Arctic16The Other Theron
  5/08/14 4:36pm
  Thank you for this. The fact that there are so many people who accept this without batting an eye says a lot, doesn't it? I get that some people think it's okay to work 80+ hour weeks and get ahead at your job and make that money.
  
  Some of us, though, don't fall for that bullshit. Call me unmotivated if you'd like, but I'll take less money for more free time any day of the week. Maybe I won't be a CEO one day (or maybe I will!) but what I know I won't be doing is selling my fucking soul to my job and checking my email on Saturday nights when I'm at dinner somewhere. Yeah, I'll probably die a lot poorer than many of you, but I like to think I'll die happier.
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  LobstertailArctic16
  5/08/14 4:48pm
  And what happens when you want to get married and start a family? You know, have people to take care of and worry about other than yourself? I don't think your kids will put up with not having enough school supplies because their parents didn't "fall for the bullshit" and are stuck at the same enjoyable but low-paying job they started with. It's easy to talk about ideals like whistling while you work and doing something "fulfilling", but at the end of the day, work is a responsibility for a fruitful member of society. We just do it, regardless of whether we like it.
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shallowmusingsHamilton Nolan
5/08/14 4:07pm
Isn't this just a sympton of the horrible work climate in this country? That enduring abuse from your superior is just the norm and you should learn to deal with it? Anytime I read these stories my favorite thing to do is to see how many people call the author a baby, etc. These are the people who perputate the system. They are perfetly fine with the status quo and dont ever want things to change. Either they are the ones hurling the abuses, or they have just become so accustomed to them than any other way of exisiting just doesnt cut it. I tell anyone who wants to listen to me at a bar, that slavery has never ended, it just evolved. You can rationalize sleeping in your car to meet your bosses insane expectations, or you can realize that it is a form of slavery. You are bound to your master and his wishes or you face the consequences. We dont need whips and chains, we have mortgages and consumer debt. And just like in the old plantation days, you keep the slaves in line by handpicking a few favorites and treating them better; Better known as house slaves, or in this case, Management. Through division, you conquer the whole lot. 100% of the time, it works everytime.
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  Arctic16shallowmusings
  5/08/14 4:38pm
  The thing with the defenders is that usually they're in the same boat, so they HAVE to support the model. Because to do otherwise would be to admit that they're pouring their hearts and souls into a job that ultimately doesn't give a fuck about them, and that's scary.
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  Obliteratishallowmusings
  5/08/14 4:53pm
  It's always been that way in this country, even before we became a country. Underneath the porn and pop music and summer blockbusters, we're still the same self-flagellating Puritans we've always been, confusing harshness with discipline and suffering with determination.
  
  When I first started working for a German company a few years ago, and started spending a lot of time in Europe, the thing that struck me the most is their attitude towards workaholics and nose-to-the-grindstone work environments. We think of Germans as these clockwork automatons, but in reality people who work 60 hours a week here aren't regarded as alphas or successes, they're regarded as lunatics, and are avoided whenever possible. And bosses who constantly threaten and whine and try to squeeze every last drop of blood from their employees are regarded as incompetent, inefficient buffoons. Such a healthier attitude, and every business here is more productive because of it.
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doublekrutchHamilton Nolan
5/08/14 4:06pm
Ok, this is probably going to get me in trouble but I'm going to say it anyway:

I moved to the Bay Area a couple of years ago and have had to endure endless ribbing about being a terrible East Coast meanie. Apparently, it's the East Coast's fault that banks went bust and it's the terrible puritanical East Coast work ethic that makes us all uptight overachievers and is ruining the planet.

At first, I was kind of like "ehh, yeah, it is kinda like that over there." But the longer I stay here, the more obnoxious it seems, given the way Google, Amazon, Twitter and all of these tech companies are operating. On the East Coast, you're expected to show up, work hard, work long hours, and produce high quality work. But you can leave at night and have a life outside of work. Nobody cares what you do on Saturday evening, really.

The work culture in Silicon Valley doesn't recognize any boundaries. It expects your LIFE. You MUST be on a bouncy castle with coworkers at a theme party on Saturday. And if you're not doing that, you're not "dedicated". You can work slowly, but you must be in the office at all times. Your coworkers are your friends now, kiss everyone else goodbye. You have an important calling, our company is "saving the world"... they read your emails, they ask about your personal business, they try to force you to do yoga on the premises and to radically change your diet...

It freaks me out and seems extremely cultlike.
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  ORANGE!doublekrutch
  5/08/14 4:21pm
  Fuck. That!!
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  ghostandgoblindoublekrutch
  5/08/14 8:59pm
  Why do you think Google provides free food and all those other goodies? It's not because they are nice. It's because Google wants - expects - that Google becomes the most important part of your life. I imagine the vaunted "googliness" they say they want is, in addition to technical skill of course, basically just the ability and desire to subsume your entire existence to the corporation.
  
  It's not just tech companies though. From what I've read, Goldman Sachs is much the same way (although their culture has changed since the IPO). Some consulting companies are like that.
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brillowHamilton Nolan
5/08/14 3:40pm
I enjoy this exercise, but I am unsure if stories about working at Amazon would be much different than stories about working at Microsoft, or Google, or the University of Missouri, or Great Clips, or Burger King.

Lots of people think their life situation is uniquely challenging and their job is uniquely horrible. Some of them are right (by definition, not many though).

As someone who works in a field notorious for its highly competitive nature which excludes having hobbies or a family life, I am unsympathetic to people who complain about it.

I had a student tell me yesterday that college is too rough because they are expected to take Calculus AND Organic Chemistry AND Genetics in the same semester, and they barely have time to spend with their fraternity. Clearly a pre-pharmacy program is not for them.

Also, I WISH I worked at Amazon and my boss said something sexist/racist/homophobic. The settlement from that would let me retire earlier than I might.
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  Whompaloompabrillow
  5/08/14 4:33pm
  I work in tech, and have friends at Facebook, Google, Uber, Yahoo, etc. Their experiences don't comport with what's written here. We all work hard/a lot, but the folks I know have lives, free time and a lot of flexibility about where they tackle their sometimes prodigious workloads.
  
  And one of the letter writers is dead on that this is an ultimately self-defeating approach for Amazon. Lack of continuity in the management ranks is a real threat to the evolution of any company, given the amount of time it takes for any company that big to get moving on any initiative of substance.
  
  The Googles and Apples of the world don't offer expensive perks, and golden-handcuff-like incentives because they are nice. They do it to get and keep the best talent. Amazon has a rep for being pennywise and pound foolish, which is what makes these letters interesting to me.
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  kimmyisgodbrillow
  5/08/14 7:06pm
  Actually, it is quite different at Amazon than the places you list above. For the professional staff at the headquarters, the average stay is less than 2 years.
  
  Quite different than Microsoft or Google or even the University of Missouri for professional staff.
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LocalSPHamilton Nolan
5/08/14 4:23pm
To the people who posted their experiences in the above article: Unions aren't looking too bad now are they? Also Bezos sounds like he attended the L Ron Hubbard school of business management. He's trying to create a cult mentality in his company.
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  Beef7upLocalSP
  5/08/14 9:42pm
  Unions aren't necessary, in fact they are corruptions of individual responsibility and freedom. We are a nation of laws, pass laws and enforce the laws. I can find many ex-union members who will explain to you the costs/benefits of being a low ranking member of a U.S. union. If you want a company in your state to be limited in hours and responsibilities they can assign one human being, then pass a law. Better make sure you pass the same law in every other state too.
  
  When people speak up in mass, change occurs. That's the secret.
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  LocalSPBeef7up
  5/08/14 10:13pm
  When people speak up in mass, change occurs. That's the secret.
  
  And that is exactly what unions do for people. Like the 40 hour work week? Thank the unions. Like having guarantied breaks during you work day? T
  
  hank a union
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icewineHamilton Nolan
5/09/14 12:31am
I've been debating whether or not to weigh in on this.

I worked at Amazon's Seattle campus for about a year in the recent past. I definitely drew the short straw in terms of who I was assigned to report to and what my position actually turned out to be so consider my bad experience an extreme case. Regardless, every single one of the stories I've read so far from other from Amazon corporate employees is like having an awful flashback from my experience. I personally know of dozens of other stories from the Seattle offices that corroborate what's already been shared.

I'm not going to share my story because I don't want to identify myself and I don't feel like sharing type of story you've already heard from someone else. Other notable themes I observed that I have not heard mentioned in the stories so far include the following:

1. Development of severe and chronic health problems due to stress and anxiety. I've witnessed a colleague go through cancer, another developed some weird nerve disorder, one guy I know had to be hospitalized because his anxiety kept him up for three days straight. I had my own issue develop that my doctor diagnosed as stress related, but I'm not going to share what it was to protect my identity.

2. Lots of crying or the appearance of people who look like they've been crying or could burst into tears at any moment. I noticed this a lot in the morning on my way to work especially once I got closer to the office. Several times I went to use a bathroom on the first floor of my building and awkwardly walked in on an adult who was trying to pull themselves back together. Most Amazon buildings' first floors don't have many offices so you're not likely to see your coworkers in there. I personally can't believe I never cried, I wish I had, maybe it would have relieved some of the stress.

3. Immature and inexperienced management hired externally. Amazon seems to higher a lot of MBAs from top schools into Level 6 positions (Senior Manager) who have no experience managing people. Like everyone at Amazon, these people are very bright have a strong work ethic and want to do big things. Unfortunately they typically have little experience managing people, much less developing them and some are just straight up socially awkward. Many are huge assholes in their early 30s. Some of them you just feel bad for because they're in over their heads and not long for Amazon from day one and being an over achiever means so much to them. The PIP thing is crazy real there. I wasn't there for very long and I saw and heard of quite a few people disappear.

4. Experiences vary greatly by department and job function. I have a lot of friends who still work there and some are actually happy at the moment, but most just seem exhausted and ready to jump ship. My friends who are SDE's generally seem less stressed than my friends in other business functions, but still this is all so situational. The one thing that does seem consistent is that the average Amazon corporate employee's work life is a lot more stressful than anything I've seen at other Fortune 500s.

The company is incredibly innovative and they have some of the brightest and awesome people on the planet working there, but for many current and former employees it really can be the hell hole described in the stories submitted to Gawker. The company's innovation thrives on the fumes of highly replaceable eager recent grads and the financial fears of gifted seasoned professionals who uprooted their lives and families to relocate to Seattle for the job. Total venus fly trap. Sadly none of this is likely to change because there is a line out the door to get in and the talent pool is strong enough to quickly learn the roles of those they've been hired to replace.

For those of you who are skeptical about what I just shared, I really don't give a shit. I wrote this for those of you who have, are or are currently considering the "opportunity" to go through the nonsense that is Amazon's corporate culture. You will definitely have good stuff to put on your resume in a very short time, but you've been warned, Amazon is a tough place to work and HR don't love you.

I'm glad I survived and got it over with fast.
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  freebirdsmindsicewine
  5/11/14 2:24am
  I know from first hand experience and some of my colleagues that many companies in Silicon Valley and perhaps in general the tech industry are the same way. The management rules like a dictator, directors manage their teams with an iron fist. The divide and rule policy is very very effectively enforced - and the managers are smart to recognize any potential whistle blowers early and throw them out and only keep the subservient employees. The PIP thing is also very real just like at Amazon - this is how the companies manage their reputation by not having to do publicized layoffs and manage headcount.
  
  I had moved to the Bay Area from the East Coast hoping to make a living after the financial crisis. I was looked down upon and treated like shit and ended up hating my job within the first 3 months. I feel like the whole Silicon Valley with it's myriad of companies have conspired to create an environment and reputation that is infallible so that they may always have disposable talent at their doorstep when they need it. The weather in bay area doesn't help either - it acts like a natural prison for people who end up getting addicted to it and refuse to leave. I ended up leaving the Bay Area altogether in just 2 years for a better quality of life.
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  GHDavefreebirdsminds
  5/12/14 4:01pm
  What's PIP mean? I looked on Acronym Finder but there are 155 entries for PIP, and I didn't see any obvious one.
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dkmannHamilton Nolan
5/08/14 4:05pm
Here we go again. Not a single thing illegal going on, but yet the company has to get shamed by Gawker.

If you ran the rantings of every employee who thinks their company ought to do it differently or their way, you'd have content for a billion years.

Millions of Americans switch up employment to accommodate having children. I have had several employees do this. I've done this. Everybody in my friend group has done this. I made a decision to leave the family unfriendly job for the family friendly one and I knew what I was doing. I don't feel sorry for people who expect a major corporation to change its entire culture because you want to be both home mom and corporate badass.

By the way - I was called back from lunch to deal with a problem today. Is there any way you can do a ten part series on my employer? I had ordered the Sea Bass and I had to take it in a doggie bag... should I call the EEOC?
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  ᘻalcriaᖱadkmann
  5/08/14 7:25pm
  No!!! Email HamNo IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  Beef7updkmann
  5/08/14 9:49pm
  Working 80 hours and doing the work of 2 to 3 people in order to grow profitibility is not the same as getting the wrong meal in a restaraunt. That it is legal, to some extant and for some places is true. That it is appropriate, for a civilization to have corporations and their benefits of hiearchacical protection when they use human resources in an explitive way, is unethical.
  
  Your argument on choice is laughable, what planet are you from?
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jfpmfersHamilton Nolan
5/08/14 6:28pm
I work at a really small company. I have two bosses; my direct supervisor and his manager, who also gives me many of my tasks and interacts with me daily.

The manager on one occasion took issue with me over calling in late when I was stranded somewhere. When I pushed back and pointed out that I had worked nights, mornings before work, and personally responded to many issues that she herself had, my Supervisor pulled me aside and the following conversation happened:

Him: Why would you do something so stupid?

me: Excuse me?

Him: What you did was stupid. You shouldn't complain to your boss.

Me: It's a matter of respect...if I work overtime, I should not be chastised for being late once when i was stranded.

Him: Fuck Respect. Respect doesn't matter. The CEO could find out what you said.

Me: who the hell cares?!
And that's when I realized i wasn't long for this company - "fuck respect." PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK THIS WAY. PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK YOUR BOSS DOESN'T NEED TO RESPECT YOU AND TREAT YOU LIKE A HUMAN. YOU ARE A MORON IF YOU THINK THIS.
It's just too bad that even small companies can be run by idiots.
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  Beef7upjfpmfers
  5/08/14 9:56pm
  Pass a law. Seriously. Forget the socialism, just let the world know we want a change. Same thing with globalization, pass a law. Let the market sort out the rest.
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  jfpmfersBeef7up
  5/09/14 12:29pm
  which law? murphy's law? terrible CD
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ImmortalAgnesHamilton Nolan
5/08/14 3:31pm
I have to admit that I am a little delighted by this series, but only because my wretched former coworker left to take a job with Amazon.

GIF

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