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    bullshit reservoir is fullErin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 2:07pm

    Alright, fine. This is as good a place as any. Let's go on the trip. Rape culture, not all men are like that, not all women are like that, generalizing genders this, discriminating without cause that, rightfully afraid because x, exaggerating dangers of y... the whole darn thing. Let me walk you through my head and show you where I think things go.

    I don't know the exact number of years, but let's go with five because that's ballpark correct. Five years ago, I had never heard the term rape culture. Five years ago, somebody online used it in conversation with me. Argument, more than conversation, really.

    I'm a man in the middle of my 20's. I do not now, and have not ever, felt entitled to women's bodies, or even their opinions or the time of day. I'm reluctant to talk to strangers at all. I DO now, and have for most of my life, feel entitled to answers when a conversation is already going. This usually ends poorly for me when an argument gets heated. I'm unwilling to drop the subject, and that makes the other person, man or woman, mad at me. It's a fault of mine I'm working on, but there it is.

    So, here I am online, talking to someone that I assume was a woman, and I put on the brakes. Whoa whoa whoa. Rape culture? Hold on now. I don't know what you mean by that.

    They explain. I lash out. BULLSHIT I say. That is not at all my experience nor the experience anybody I know personally has ever shared with me. Every man I know who has been accused of even the slightest impropriety is practically a leper, I say. In fact, this is such a strong influence I am legitimately terrified of trying to make any romantic advance at all.

    I'm accused of making things up and being a troll. I do not take this well. The argument gets out of hand, and I'm not particularly willing to drop it. This is an important founding layer in my response to someone being called a troll or not being given the benefit of the doubt. It enrages me. This colors a lot of future interactions on the subjects of feminism.

    I'm a feminist. I'm an ally. I'm very strongly pro-choice and believe in equal pay. I think pretty much any form of contraceptive or abortifacient should be readily available to anybody who wants it. I don't think there's a job in the world that should be done by only one gender. I believe transgendered persons should be treated as the gender with which they identify, even if I don't really understand.

    But sometimes, when women speak about their harassment or rape experiences and make claims about the mindsets and motivations of the men involved or the attitudes of the people around them, I object. I give the benefit of the doubt or question the narrative as given, because it's my experience that things are completely upside-down from what's being explained to me. Men do not have the powers it's claimed they do, at least not in the real sense. They CAN "take" what they want, but that is a very, very bad idea because of the neverending ramifications.

    Over and over, any time these things come up, I butt heads with others. They tell me I'm disregarding women's lived experiences, and they're not wrong. I am doing that, because those experiences run directly counter to the world I think I know. I'm willing to be civil about it, but they are not. They think the only way I could possibly be saying what I am saying is that I'm a troll. That I'm not an ally. That I hate women and want them to suffer. This does not go well. I do not drop the subject.

    In time, I learn to engage less in the first place on these topics. I still don't think I'm wrong, but I don't think it will be worth fighting about. It will turn ugly, partially because of the accusatory nature of a lot of feminists and partially because of my problem dropping subjects, and nobody will benefit.

    Barring this one topic, I get deeper and deeper into feminist subjects. I become more and more entrenched as an ally in most respects. Even on this topic, I still believe that men who do violate or harass women deserve punishment much more severe than most justice systems will give them. I believe it is no man's right to ever touch any woman. I believe that very large numbers of men do it anyway, and a lot of them are not punished accordingly.

    But something still doesn't fit. How and why does that happen? In my experience, men aren't raised to feel entitled to anything. This even goes beyond sexual issues and I don't see where the trope of blind confidence "because man" comes from. Who is teaching them this? Is it TV? Music? I see those things, and I didn't take away those lessons.

    Is it parents? Maybe. I was raised by a single working mother. I didn't have a father. I don't know what most dads say to their sons about women. My mom didn't really talk to me about relationships. She taught me the basic biological functions of the sexes, but never really said anything beyond that. Sex ed in school was basically an overview of the biology and then a few weeks of "STDs are SUPER bad".

    Some man does something horrible to some woman. There's an article, but nobody gets a direct statement from either party. I come to a site like this one, and there are hundreds of people making claims about the case. It sounds like he's guilty, but I'm not 100%. There are all sorts of things about how "this is why women have to not trust men." I will usually keep my mouth shut these days.

    I've never touched a woman. Never gone beyond smalltalk with a woman who isn't already my friend. Never indicated romantic interest in any of those friends, even if it was there. I'm terrified that I'll misread the situation and be cast out, treated as a leper for eternity for daring to disrespect a boundary I didn't know I'd crossed. I don't know where or how men supposedly get this confidence or this entitlement. I don't know what part of our culture imparts or supports that. I can't see it, and I can't talk about it without starting a stupidly overblown argument or being called a troll.

    This is how it goes. This is where I am. This topic does not change or evolve. I do not understand, and I don't dare ask when the topic comes up.

    Recently, through completely impossible circumstances, I went on a date with a woman a few years younger than me. We saw eachother again this week. At every step, I asked her whether or not she was comfortable with whatever I was about to say or do. I backed every remotely sensitive question with an assurance that she didn't have to answer if she didn't want to. I feel like I'm practically smothering her with inane questions about her comfort, but I'm completely terrified to try anything at all without asking. I feel no entitlement whatsoever. I feel the opposite. I feel like asking her is bothering her because she has no reason to say yes because I am not only not entitled, but do not deserve to put my arm around her. I haven't earned the right.

    I don't know where I get it. It's equally baffling to me that anybody could have the opposite headspace.

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      eutie the Lady Nerevarinebullshit reservoir is full
      4/25/14 2:23pm

      So you would rather go with your own experience than listen to people who have ACTUALLY experienced the things we discuss?

      I've never been street-harassed or catcalled, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe other women when they say that they have.

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      bullshit reservoir is fulleutie the Lady Nerevarine
      4/25/14 2:29pm

      I believe an instance of it when it's mentioned. Oh, that happened to you? Shitty.

      It's when the claims are made about how the culture supports it that I turn around. I don't see that. I never have. When claims are made indirectly without a direct account of events and assumptions are made based on the supposed power differences or motivations of the people you didn't ask, I object, because it runs counter to my experience.

      If a bad thing happened to somebody and they told me, I would believe them and sympathize. But our culture being totally okay with those things or enabling/causing those things? I still don't see it.

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    Belle BritaErin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 1:05pm

    What the ever-loving fuck?! Seriously, this is a clear-cut horrifying example of male fucking privilege and the way our society teaches boys they're fucking entitled to girls.

    Gargh. This is disgusting and terrifying and heartbreaking and THIS IS WHY SOME GIRLS/WOMEN ARE SCARED OF ALL BOYS/MEN.

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      eats books and leavesBelle Brita
      4/25/14 1:09pm

      How much do you want to bet this article's being posted on some MRA sites with the word "friendzone" attached in some way?

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      ALittleBossyBelle Brita
      4/25/14 1:10pm

      But think of men and their feefees!!

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    yayloErin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 2:09pm

    Raise your hand if you're a woman who's ever had the thought "man, I hope that dude doesn't kill me." *Raises hand

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      thescientistfeministyaylo
      4/25/14 2:31pm

      yep. Multiple times. In relationships (two separate ones) and with "friends/aquantainces" that wouldn't respect boundaries. And now men wonder why I immediately tell them I don't date men anymore (came out as gay recently) the second they mention my looks or hint at dating. I don't care if you really were insinuating interest and I misinterpreted it. I'm making it clear so you are less likely to become threatening later on when you claim I "lead you on". I have no idea if you're unhinged, but I have enough bad experiences to do everything in my power to lessen that if you are, I'll be the brunt of it. :/

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      usedtobehereyaylo
      4/25/14 3:21pm

      In one instance, the dude almost did. Nothing says "I feel entitled to sex" like choking a woman unconscious.

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    MistyGishErin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 1:44pm

    This is terrifying. As a teenager I barely understood that you were allowed to decline a prom invite. It didn't help that at my school you weren't allowed to go to a formal dance without a partner. The date had to be opposite sex, because that really prevented any students from being gay right? By the way, this was around 2007, so not like in the 1950s. I didn't have a date yet and this boy who I never really spoke to, but was in the same honors program ambushes me with flowers and a prom proposal. I knew he had already asked another girl but she already had a date. In retrospect it's likely that he may have had a social disorder, maybe autism. He was smart, but had no clue how to read others cues or interact casually. When he asked me I felt obligated to say yes to make sure he had fun, but I knew I wouldn't. I felt like I had no right to say no. I wasn't that great, who was I to be a stuck up bitch and say no? I felt cornered and awful. For whatever reason I answered saying that I cant go because I wasn't going at all. I thought that was my penance for turning him down, that I just wouldn't go at all. In response he kind of broke down and kept repeating "please come, I'll make it so good for you, please come". At this point he really was physically cornering me in a "hug" that was really a restraint since he was hold my arms down. I finally just yelled no and ran away. I felt like human garbage for turning him down. I should have known that I had a right to say no, and that he wasn't my responsibility.

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      fortheloveofbeetsMistyGish
      4/25/14 7:00pm

      Yup. Unfortunately, this shit is not really that much of an anomaly.

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    AnonymousCivilPersonErin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 1:22pm
    GIF
    GIF

    This is sad. This is a case with someone who clearly has something wrong with them.

    .

    To Belle Femme:

    Yes, Male entitlement is an issue. Yes, it needs to be addressed.

    Someone who stabs someone because of rejection is not a good example of the majority of the male population. They are a crazy person. They may be worse because of society, but that argument applies to every criminal ever.
    .

    .

    .


    I posted this in a new post since you chose to dismiss my comment on your post.

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      Seize: it's about ethics in gossip journalismAnonymousCivilPerson
      4/25/14 2:02pm

      Hi. Mental illness is neither necessary nor sufficient to cause violent behavior. Most mentally ill people do not display violent behaviors at all. So attributing this kind of appalling behavior to being some sort of "crazy" is a nonsense statement which actually contributes to biases and prejudices toward actual mentally ill people. It's not just useless, it is bad and harmful.

      This kid participated in an act of gendered violence. Sure, he turned it up to 11 — that's why it's on the news. It is much more useful to draw parallels between this stabbing and other acts of gendered violence and male entitlement than it is to the tired and inaccurate trope that violence is caused by a fifth humour known as "crazy."

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      AnonymousCivilPersonSeize: it's about ethics in gossip journalism
      4/25/14 2:10pm

      I apologize for using the blanket term "crazy" to describe this person. I assure you I did not intend to insult other non-criminal "crazy" people.

      If it makes you feel better, do a "find replace" on my comment and exchange "crazy" for "homicidally psychopathic" or "disturbed" or whatever you like to describe someone who steps outside of societal norms to the degree that they need a combination of psychiatric evaluation and physical detention.

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    thesporkgirlErin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 1:46pm

    shouldn't the non-stabby, non-hitty, non-attacky men in the world read this kind of thing and think, "well *I* look great now." instead, they seem intent on shouting about the fact that "not all men" are like this. or not most. yes, not most! so good for you, if you are not one of these ones, why are you lumping yourself in with them? why don't you just accept that there is something seriously wrong with many men, and you are not one of them, and hurrah!

    or are you scared that you are actually one of those ones?

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      djhopscotchthesporkgirl
      4/25/14 2:21pm

      So you are hoping for silence?

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      thesporkgirldjhopscotch
      4/25/14 2:23pm

      are the only options: outrage, bruised ego, mild butthurt, or silence? if yes, yes; silence please. there are many other reactions, like condemning those violent men, for example, that would be preferable.

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    andsmokeit is mrs tormund giantsbaneErin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 1:13pm

    "So this male friend of mine, who does by the way exist, conveniently entered into the following dialogue.

    "I mean," I said, "men are bigger, most of the time, they can run faster, strangle better, and they have on the average a lot more money and power."

    "They're afraid women will laugh at them," he said. "Undercut their world view."

    Then I asked some women students in a quickie poetry seminar I was giving, "Why do women feel threatened by men?"

    "They're afraid of being killed," they said."

    -Margaret Atwood

    (Full disclosure: Inspired by similar comment on the Gawker article)

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      andsmokeit is mrs tormund giantsbaneandsmokeit is mrs tormund giantsbane
      4/25/14 1:28pm

      Related/will make you laugh instead of cry bitter, angry tears:

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      mothafrickingaryoakandsmokeit is mrs tormund giantsbane
      4/25/14 3:26pm

      I just read the comments under that video and...yup. There are no words to describe what I felt when I read them, so here's a gif instead:

      GIF
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    chrisbee13Erin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 1:18pm

    Obviously on a much different scale, but when my grandmother was 13 she was asked out by a neighborhood boy. When she said no, he angrily told her that she should think so highly of herself since she was adopted — a true statement that until then a secret from her. She completely spiraled after that, dropped out of school, destroyed her relationship with her parents etc. GUYS ARE THE WORST

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      brick frogchrisbee13
      4/25/14 1:29pm

      Yeah, your grandmother finding out she was adopted is totally analogous to getting brutally murdered. Jesus.

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      chrisbee13brick frog
      4/25/14 1:34pm

      Here's how my comment started, because you must have missed it "Obviously on a much different scale"

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    StaggerLeenaErin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 1:45pm

    Read this story, look me in the face, and tell me that boys are not socialized to believe that they "deserve" girls, that they are "owed" a girl, and that females are simply prizes and objects.

    Look at any movie or piece of pop culture directed at young people (or directed at anyone, for that matter). The female does what the male wants by the end and is awarded to him as a prize.

    Something similar happened to a friend of a friend at a different school when I was in high school. Luckily no one was harmed but there were restraining orders filed and the girl had a police escort in between her classes. All because she didn't behave like the glimmering object the boy thought he deserved.

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      atlanticoceanidStaggerLeena
      4/25/14 2:15pm

      Look at the gross Audi prom commercial from last year when the kid kisses the not-consenting prom queen on the best night of his life.

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      goddessoftransitoryatlanticoceanid
      4/25/14 4:00pm

      I fucking hate that commercial. Sexually assault somebody boys, and prove you're a man!

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    girlfmkittyErin Gloria Ryan
    4/25/14 1:45pm

    In Argentina, they've come up with a term for this type of incident. They call it "gender violence," and it's always some asshat who decides he is entitled to/has privileges over a female and then does crap like this, or worse, they set women on fire. Because that's a thing over there. (So glad I got out of dodge almost 20 years ago...)

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      Rooo sez BISH PLZgirlfmkitty
      4/25/14 2:51pm

      I'm not sure which is scarier - the fact that it happens so often that Argentina has a term for it, or the fact that it happens just as often here in the EEUU and is pushed so far under the rug as a recurring phenomenon that we don't have a term for it.

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      girlfmkittyRooo sez BISH PLZ
      4/25/14 3:04pm

      Look, I read the Argentinean paper online every morning. Every other day there's a report about a woman either being set on fire, or shot, or raped, or stabbed or something by their s.o. Sometimes they're pregnant too and the baby dies as well. And "violencia de género" (gender violence) is always, always a part of the report. So scary and incredibly sad.

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