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bugthecatErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 3:40pm
I don't know about this. It ignores the very real old boys network. And as a woman I find most men to be very effective communicators...at least in my field.
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  pibberbugthecat
  1/11/14 4:20pm
  I think this article relies too heavily on stereotypes. Saying men can't/don't communicate well is simply false, especially when we see people who stop and pay attention when a man speaks but ignore or mock women when they're saying the same damn thing. Even if it weren't false, it wouldn't be all that relevant - if you're a great communicator but can't get anyone to listen you're not gonna get very far.
  
  Also, I recall reading a study some time last year showing that men in female-dominated industries tend to climb the job ladder at a quicker rate, because they're groomed for promotions. So yeah, the old boys network is still around.
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  MyOceanbugthecat
  1/11/14 4:24pm
  Well, it could be said that thanks to the old boys network and/or the heads of companies that used to do industrial-type things here, when physically demanding jobs that required little to no higher education were shipped overseas, that's when the trouble started for the "American male". I do think that plays a big part in the mess that is the US right now.
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paulisclosediiErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 3:48pm
Maybe rather than trying to appropriate the blame we should try to find solutions to the problem, particularly in education where more and more boys are being abandoned.
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  Thegalinredpaulisclosedii
  1/11/14 5:06pm
  AMEN!
  
  GIF
  
  As a teacher, i am 100% behind this. How about we not see our children as boys vs girls and just see them as STUDENTS who need to be prepared for a different economy PERIOD.
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  Joanbeampaulisclosedii
  1/11/14 5:13pm
  Absolutely, and it often starts at the elementary school level, most unfortunately. It's rather shocking — or perhaps telling — that Rachel Burger doesn't even seem to be taking this into account.
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ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ : Riot GRRR is RUNNING WILDErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 4:12pm

GIF

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  paultoesʕ•ᴥ•ʔ : Riot GRRR is RUNNING WILD
  1/11/14 5:03pm
  
  GIF
  
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  Adam Smithʕ•ᴥ•ʔ : Riot GRRR is RUNNING WILD
  1/11/14 7:05pm
  I think circumcision killed masculinity. How are you supposed to be a man when the tip of your penis, the pinneacle of your manhood has been taken from you when you were a defenseless baby ? Think on it and sleep on it. It makes sense.
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brightelenErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 4:07pm
You mostly implied this, but let's spell it out: a small group of powerful men are the ones to blame. Not all men. Not even most of them.

http://www.amazon.com/Stiffed-The-Be...

Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man

Amazon.com: $15.29

Buy now 22 readers bought this

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  IFindYourLackOfPantsDisturbingbrightelen
  1/11/14 5:35pm
  Pretty sure that's precisely what Erin was saying.
  
  It's because we live in a capitalist society, and the capitalist economy that men of the twentieth century built and profited from also profited from shipping jobs that require traditionally "masculine" qualities overseas.
  
  ...the high paying, high skilled manual labor jobs that captains of industry went ahead and outsourced are being replaced by jobs in the service and health care industry that pay a hell of a lot less, pushing workers with lower levels of education even further down the economic ladder and opening up a precipitous gap between rich and poor.
  
  It's implied that this was done by the guys at the top, not the workers, which would represent the majority of men.
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FizzwazooErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 3:59pm
What's with this idiotic idea that compromise, networking, and communication are feminine traits? When did this thing that most people do get that label? I think you've watched a bit too much Girls, Erin, because that rich, young 25 year old snarky woman isn't what is ruling the scene.
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  senilezombiegrouchomarxFizzwazoo
  1/11/14 4:24pm
  I don't understand it either.
  
  Compromise, networking and communication are neutral traits every human must use to function in society. Is being a merchant now a 'feminine' profession? After all, they don't get their hands dirty, they use and cultivate networks, while also 'compromising' (making deals and agreements) on a daily basis. For that matter, dictators also use those three traits to seize power. Are Dictators 'feminine'?
  
  If masculinity is defined by the height of your truck and the size of the truck ballz hanging off the hitch, then most professions that favor intelligence over strength are 'feminine'.
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  AltairaMorbiusFizzwazoo
  1/11/14 4:28pm
  Exactly- the problem with the "masculinity" stereotype is off because it has *always* been a false movie/marketing ploy (see the picture from the very, very fictional movie at the header). Sure, maybe men were tougher on the frontier- so were women (see: Little House books, which, while...interesting (ahem, racist)...in some ways, shows how tough EVERYONE had to be to survive). The film world twisted this, particularly with the Western, and gave men all of the "tough" traits, to make them appear more "masculine," while setting up the women in the stories with the "feminine" traits you list. I could go on about this for ages, as I'm pretty sure I wrote a couple of papers on this in college, but suffice it to say: right on. When did we decide to let a few movie directors (really, John Ford, who influenced everyone else) decide what is "masculine" and "feminine" in our culture?
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CTRL+ALT+DELhommeErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 3:46pm
Because it's Saturday and I feel nit picky: Golfing your way up the corporate ladder is/was the "male equivalent" of compromise, communication, networking etc.

So we really need a social sport with a less engrained history of exclusion and sexism. I vote for bocce.
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  arbarrtheaardvarkCTRL+ALT+DELhomme
  1/11/14 6:31pm
  Thank you! I was trying to figure out a non-rambling/not-overly-thinky response that would elucidate my problem with this piece's line of reasoning... and that's the perfect little chunk of an example. When I try to communicate, as a woman, I frequently get shut down, whether it's intentional or not. When something later on proves me to have been right, as it often does, it's rare that I get belated credit or that my opinion's value gets retroactively increased to the others involved. Women may be socialized to communicate well and work together well, but our society only wants us to do that in terms of interpersonal relationships, not in professional environments. I don't work in an office, I work in a restaurant, and have had a hell of a time earning the respect of my peers and higher-ups, thankfully about 6 months ago we got our first female GM in many, many, many years, and she has been very perceptive and keen about my abilities and struggles and has helped me enormously to figure out how to "play the game". But you know what always held me back? Not being interested in soccer. Because most of the other staff play in or attend the store's soccer games, and I just could not care less about it. I quit soccer the first day I tried it, I hated it that much - and this is coming from a girl who stuck with basketball for 6 years despite only making 2 shots in the entire time. No, it wasn't the be all and end all of social inclusion or exclusion, but if I had interest, I would have been perceived as more "in the group" and been able to translate that into a more amenable work environment.
  
  I think, instead of golfing, the social "sport" for workplaces should be poker. Because I don't give a crap about it, but at least you can sit down and drink :)
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  SnidelyWhiplashCTRL+ALT+DELhomme
  1/12/14 4:17am
  So help me god, I read "bocce" as "booze." And I thought booze sounded like a friggin' AWESOME idea.
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nownullErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 4:09pm
You lost me at "libertarian thinker"
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  Joanbeamnownull
  1/11/14 4:31pm
  Ditto here. It was as if those two words had flashing neon lights and arrows surrounding them.
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  abrasax2nownull
  1/11/14 5:29pm
  Libertarian. No wonder she seems more interested in turning it into a gender issue as opposed to a class issue.
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TzaErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 4:46pm
I think the supremacy of masculinity died for a different reason. In our culture "masculine" things have a much more narrow definition of acceptability than "feminine" things. Men can be masculine by being "manly" "badass" "in charge" and other things of that nature, where as it is becoming more prevalent for "feminine" things to go beyond "girly" "emotional" and "pretty" into territory like "intellectual" "badass" "in charge" "science" and so on. And many things that were once "masculine" have now moved to being "unisex" as well, while a lot of "feminine" things still count as "for girls".

Or, to say it another way, while it is entirely likely for a girl to be seen as odd for being a tomboy, there is at least a word for it and it is more generally accepted these days, whereas a boy acting in a more stereotypically "girl" way is more likely to be stigmatized because boys seem to have a much more narrow group of acceptable man behaviors beyond simply being male in and of itself. There are of course many unisex ways to behave as well, but it is more likely a boy will be stigmatized for putting a toe in the girl pool than the other way around. Heck, look at the Bronies. You think female Transformers or Ninja Turtles fans ever got that sheer level of skepticism and mockery from outside the fanbase, to the point of it being on the news and in the papers?
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  Mr.NonConfrontationalTza
  1/11/14 5:30pm
  A Boy who acts like a girl is seen as someone who is fraudulently partaking in behaviors and social norms that he's not entitled to (* crying, designing, baking, chatterboxing)
  
  Women are supposed to be the prize for traditionally masculine behavior in a patriarchal society. If men choose to partake in these social customs for their own enjoyment, society usually finds a way to punish them for it & by society I mean women too.
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  Adam SmithTza
  1/11/14 7:07pm
  I think circumcision killed masculinity. How are you supposed to be a man when the tip of your penis, the pinneacle of your manhood has been taken from you when you were a defenseless baby ?
  
  Dwell on it. Think on it.
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theresaburleyhughesErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 3:38pm
Outsourcing occurs on a societal level though. Men are not responsible for this shift alone, this is structural...
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iwishicouldgotothefutureErin Gloria Ryan
1/11/14 5:37pm
Totally agree. The blame should be on all men.

As a black male, my ancestors did indeed "spend the last 10,000 years of human civilization in charge of most things", save that whole small half millennium or so where most black men of African descent were enslaved and then killed in Europe or America. Clearly the power vested in us over these years caused this "War on Men" to happen, and it has even affected ourselves. That we're all "wall-punching asses" who have the communication skills of apes is accurate and most certainly couldn't ever be construed as a Black stereotype.

Now it's hurting us, as the lowest income bracket "NOBAMA Have Nots" are now disproportionally black and male.

Oh, by the way, just ignore the facts that the lowest income-bracket has been disproportionally black and male for decades. That's obviously some weird statistical outlier that should have no bearing on how we think about society.
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